Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

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Eonan

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ZyyzYzzy said:
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The examples for WoW are exaggerated, as is my response. In every single successive EQ expansion, high level trash mobs were of course more powerful and more difficult than content from the previous expansion. You can look all over Kunark for examples of this, to include the Chokidai in Chardock, which could hit as hard as Phinny and barely had less HP.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Eonan said:
The examples for WoW are exaggerated, as is my response. In every single successive EQ expansion, high level trash mobs were of course more powerful and more difficult than content from the previous expansion. You can look all over Kunark for examples of this, to include the Chokidai in Chardock, which could hit as hard as Phinny and barely had less HP.
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You are describing a dungeon that was high end content for that expansion. Not some bunny in the first zone
 
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Eonan

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ZyyzYzzy said:
You are describing a dungeon that was high end content for that expansion. Not some bunny in the first zone
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The original post was speaking to EQ period, not "the first zone" of any expansion, which I just provided you with a direct example of. The response to which I replied, if you took the time to actually read the context of the discussion, tried to claim that only WoW did this.

Please point to me the first zone of any successive WoW expansion where a raid-geared player from the previous expansion would immediately eat shit upon entering the first zone. You won't find one, largely because WoW leveling is solo-based.

Whereas in EQ, you could absolutely eat shit in the first zone of a new expansion to "rabbit_01" despite being decked out in top-end raid gear from the previous expansion, because it was not a "solo" game.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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The Edge said:
One thing that always bothered me about EQ, that I hope they address this time around, is this:

Me: Level 60 badass, slayer of dragons, savior of the people

New continent is discovered (expansion)

Me: Visits these newly discovered lands

*wack*

"You've been slain by a snow bunny"

Me: wtf

I get that you need trash mobs and wildlife in your new expansion, and that things need to progress. But it makes no sense for bunny_01 to be more powerful than that dragon you killed last week.
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Eonan said:
The original post was speaking to EQ period, not "the first zone" of any expansion, which I just provided you with a direct example of. The response to which I replied, if you took the time to actually read the context of the discussion, tried to claim that only WoW did this.

Please point to me the first zone of any successive WoW expansion where a raid-geared player from the previous expansion would immediately eat shit upon entering the first zone. You won't find one, largely because WoW leveling is solo-based.

Whereas in EQ, you could absolutely eat shit in the first zone of a new expansion to "rabbit_01" despite being decked out in top-end raid gear from the previous expansion, because it was not a "solo" game.
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Hmmm the very first post about it sure does seem like it...

Also, I'm confused. Your first and third paragraph completely contradict one another. Which is it?
 
ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Eonan said:
The original post was speaking to EQ period, not "the first zone" of any expansion, which I just provided you with a direct example of. The response to which I replied, if you took the time to actually read the context of the discussion, tried to claim that only WoW did this.

Please point to me the first zone of any successive WoW expansion where a raid-geared player from the previous expansion would immediately eat shit upon entering the first zone. You won't find one, largely because WoW leveling is solo-based.

Whereas in EQ, you could absolutely eat shit in the first zone of a new expansion to "rabbit_01" despite being decked out in top-end raid gear from the previous expansion, because it was not a "solo" game.
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Also, no one claimed WoW did this. WoW discussion was in reference to GEAR
 
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Eonan

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ZyyzYzzy said:
Hmmm the very first post about it sure does seem like it...
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Nirgon said:
This is a WoW thing, not so much an EQ (real EQ, not Sony cuckery) thing.
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This is who my response is to.

ZyyzYzzy said:
Also, I'm confused. Your first and third paragraph completely contradict one another. Which is it?
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They don't even remotely contradict themselves. EQ Leveling was a "group" excersize unless you happened to be one of a few snare kiting classes. Meaning that it was unlikely that a "Group" would walk in to the first zone of a new expansion and eat shit, just like a solo-player in WoW is unlikely to walk in to the first zone and eat shit. But could a solo Warrior or Rogue (in EQ) go in to the first zone of a new expansion and solo that yellow-con wolf, despite being decked out in raid gear? Nope, they'd eat shit. That is exactly what the first post by The Edge The Edge states. Nirgon Nirgon wrongly states that this didn't exist or happen in the "pre-Sony cuckery" EQ world, and only really appeared in WoW, which is ludicrous.

WoW doomed this genre to 13 years of shit (and may ultimately have killed it), but don't pretend for a second that it was responsible for the introduction of "death by generic wildlife" that existed in EQ four years prior to WoW even being released.
 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Eonan said:
This is who my response is to.


They don't even remotely contradict themselves. EQ Leveling was a "group" excersize unless you happened to be one of a few snare kiting classes. Meaning that it was unlikely that a "Group" would walk in to the first zone of a new expansion and eat shit, just like a solo-player in WoW is unlikely to walk in to the first zone and eat shit. But could a solo Warrior or Rogue (in EQ) go in to the first zone of a new expansion and solo that yellow-con wolf, despite being decked out in raid gear? Nope, they'd eat shit. That is exactly what the first post by The Edge The Edge states. Nirgon Nirgon wrongly states that this didn't exist or happen in the "pre-Sony cuckery" EQ world, and only really appeared in WoW, which is ludicrous.

WoW doomed this genre to 13 years of shit (and may ultimately have killed it), but don't pretend for a second that it was responsible for the introduction of "death by generic wildlife" that existed in EQ four years prior to WoW even being released.
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So you are just a salt WoW hater. Got it.
 
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Eonan

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ZyyzYzzy said:
So you are just a salt WoW hater. Got it.
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If that is all you walked away from that post with, you're just a low-effort troll who is upset with having the basis of their argument refuted. I'm not interested in writing a teatise on how WoW, despite being a good game, ruined the MMO industry for over a decade. Instead, I'll point you to the following:

 
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ZyyzYzzy

ZyyzYzzy

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Eonan said:
If that is all you walked away from that post with, you're just a low-effort troll who is upset with having the basis of their argument refuted. I'm not interested in writing a teatise on how WoW, despite being a good game, ruined the MMO industry for over a decade. Instead, I'll point you to the following:

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Okay. So you dislike WoW. Also Nigron's post was in response to the one I quoted above.
 
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Eonan

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ZyyzYzzy said:
Okay. So you dislike WoW. Also Nigron's post was in response to the one I quoted above.
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You've made a pretty significant assumption about whether I enjoyed WoW or not, (hint: I played from release thru WotLK and enjoyed it...) which has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not the success of the game destroyed the industry.
 
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Eonan

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ZyyzYzzy said:
The industry as you want it was destroyed. Please be honest
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Are you arguing that the last twelve years of countless WoW clones somehow moved the genre forward? The genre has stagnated, anyone who takes an honest approach to reviewing where the industry currently stands won't and doesn't disagree. There is certainly "hope" on the horizon with games like Ashes of Creation and Pantheon (which I am still not convinced will ever see the light of day) but both are still over a year away from release.

You really should watch the entirety of that video I linked.
 
Laura

Laura

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Eonan said:
Uh...not really. Classic EQ thru Velious are full of examples of this.
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Not true at all.
I remember during Shadows of Luclin expansion our guild had to go through previous content raids/dungeons in order to be able to tackle SoL. Same is true for PoP, how can you compete in PoP without having geared out by SoL/Velious? and how can you tackle SoL without being geared out from Velious/Kunark. In WoW you get raid equivalent gear from the very first easy quests; not true in EQ. Heck, I couldn't event get GROUPs in PoP as a tank because my gear is not good enough for PoP and farming easy parts of PoP drop no decent loot. You had to go back and gear up in order to get invited in those crazy XP zones of PoP.

Not to forget the must-have Cleric epic weapon (and other key epics) which are in Kunark/Vanilla.

Your top gear in in Velious never went POOF obsolete when SoL was released, it was a mandatory for a guild in order to do the higher end ones and there are no easy quest rewards and no gear for easy group content that get even remotely close to how powerful those items were. Heck, even after several expansions some items are BIS from an old expansion.
 
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Eonan

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Laura said:
Not true at all.
I remember during Shadows of Luclin expansion our guild had to go through previous content raids/dungeons in order to be able to tackle SoL. Same is true for PoP, how can you compete in PoP without having geared out by SoL/Velious? and how can you tackle SoL without being geared out from Velious/Kunark. In WoW you get raid equivalent gear from the very first easy quests; not true in EQ. Heck, I couldn't event get GROUPs in PoP as a tank because my gear is not good enough for PoP and farming easy parts of PoP drop no decent loot. You had to go back and gear up in order to get invited in those crazy XP zones of PoP.

Not to forget the must-have Cleric epic weapon (and other key epics) which are in Kunark/Vanilla.

Your top gear in in Velious never went POOF obsolete when SoL was released, it was a mandatory for a guild in order to do the higher end ones and there are no easy quest rewards and no gear for easy group content that get even remotely close to how powerful those items were. Heck, even after several expansions some items are BIS from an old expansion.
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...what?

No where in The Edge's post, in the posts leaidng up to his post, or in my reply to Nirgon's response (which also didn't mention it) does anyone mention replacing raid gear immediately...the entire context of this chain of responses is limited to the scope of "new expansion fluffy_creature_01 kicks my old expansion dragon-slaying characters ass"

Gear replacement is a completely different topic all together.
 
Brodhi

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Well, the gear debate is a real topic worth discussing. The "fluffy creature kills my dragon slaying character" debate is just a role-play problem. If it makes you feel better, come up with some lore reason why fluffy bunny is now killing you. I agree it is prevalent in most MMOs by nature of progression and mob design, I don't personally care. Gear on the other hand getting replaced day 1 of an expansion, that is definitely something to hope doesn't happen.
 
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A

a_skeleton_02

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The rabbit debate is stupid, stop being a role playing homo.

Any game that uses the (outdated imo) leveling system will have problems like that. If the level cap is 50 then mobs will be tuned for lvl 50s, If they raise the cap they have to do the same for NPCS.
 
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Arden

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Fucking Drachnids killed me so many times when Kunark first came out. I had some shitty graphics card that would pretty much shut down once I hit the tree line in the dreadlands or wherever. Those bastard spiders would kill me while my screen was freezing up and next thing I knew I was naked at bind point, no clue where my corpse was. Then I'd usually die at least once more to the drachnid recluse (or whichever one could see invisible) during my corpse run trying to find my corpse in the woods. Oh EQ. Such an abusive relationship.
 
zzeris

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Eonan said:
If that is all you walked away from that post with, you're just a low-effort troll who is upset with having the basis of their argument refuted. I'm not interested in writing a teatise on how WoW, despite being a good game, ruined the MMO industry for over a decade. Instead, I'll point you to the following:

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Your other posts are solid but I find this one absurd. WoW was an improved EQ themepark and he mentioned EQ as a themepark in the video. This guy was railing against themeparks dominating the MMO space and was pushing for more emergent sandbox games like Eve. He also blames WoW but in reality he should blame gamers and other developers. As he states, Blizzard just made the best game they could for their desires. He's also completely wrong in his basketball argument but this isn't the place for that derail.

This thread is a perfect example of people not only being unable to move on to newer experiences, but their desire for more inertia of the MMO space. That's not necessarily a bad thing but the video was completely opposed to it.

Brad has replaced the exclamation point with an unseen version(perception!?) Wow, that's some deep design philosophy 15 years later. Brad is pushing a modernized version of his original game. He mentions going back to a harder time. He wants some of the QoL advances we've seen during WoW's reign over the market. I could go on and on but I think I've made my point. That video is stupid in this thread.
 
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