Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Hateyou
Not Great, Not Terrible
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This just sounds dirty. I mean, say it out loud.
“will leave you salivating at the chance to take a bite of Faerthale. “
I pronounce it Fart hall
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Arbitrary
Tranny Chaser
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Ravishing
Uninspiring Title
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Speaking of "Releasing" a game, this video is extremely interesting:
It's a FortNite Video about why it'll stay in Beta as long as possible:
I never realized this and man that's smart as hell. See guys? Being constantly in development could be a good thing!
It's a FortNite Video about why it'll stay in Beta as long as possible:
I never realized this and man that's smart as hell. See guys? Being constantly in development could be a good thing!
Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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People only lose interest if you've made the mistake of hyping your game while it was still a collection of sketches on bar napkins. Approaching investors with vague ideas and sales pitches is one thing, but trying to turn a potential audience into your investors with the digital equivalent of pan handling is another.
An audience isn't going to have the same kind of patience an investor would because the stakes are different.
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Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Assuming it gets launched, Pantheon may win just because of the lack of competition for new mmos. What other mmos (not asian) are coming out in the next few years? Ashes of Creation and? I don't count Crowfall, Camelot or the Amazon offering, they're pvp centric. Different audiences.
It's taken over a decade but WoW / Blizzard are not the heavy hitters they use to be, and seem to be heading to being a sideshow and a laughing stock. New western mmos are very rare, but there is still a big audience for them.
If Pantheon gets released by 2020 and it isn't a total screw up (tall order I know) then the lack of competition could make them big winners.
A lot of ifs in that scenario, but there is no denying that there is a lack of new western mmos on the market and the old ones are losing players.
It's taken over a decade but WoW / Blizzard are not the heavy hitters they use to be, and seem to be heading to being a sideshow and a laughing stock. New western mmos are very rare, but there is still a big audience for them.
If Pantheon gets released by 2020 and it isn't a total screw up (tall order I know) then the lack of competition could make them big winners.
A lot of ifs in that scenario, but there is no denying that there is a lack of new western mmos on the market and the old ones are losing players.
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Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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The lack of competition might give them a boost in exposure, but it's not going to give them a "win" by itself. People don't need to play MMOs. If the game sucks it won't win even if it was the only mmo on the planet. If Pantheon sucks, people will just play games that aren't MMOs. I haven't found an mmo worth playing in years, personally. I'm not going to play a shitty game just so I can be playing an mmo.
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Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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No doubt they have to deliver. Or it will be like Vanguard (or more recently BFA). Lots of box (now digital) sales and tons of returns.
I was just pointing out that they have a rare opportunity because of the lack of competition from western developers for the next 2 or 3 years.
I was just pointing out that they have a rare opportunity because of the lack of competition from western developers for the next 2 or 3 years.
Ravishing
Uninspiring Title
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I think WoW still satisfies the itch for MMO players.
Q3 Results for Activision Blizzard:
https://investor.activision.com/static-files/48336bdf-c1f7-4493-b3a0-6e17f00b8671
I don't play WoW, never played since beta. I've played almost every other MMO but for some reason have 0 desire to play anymore MMOs. Maybe it's because I've played a ton of them in my life, or because other "non-MMO" games are just better... i dont know... Pantheon isn't appealing to me at all atm. I do like the new look of their Ogres. The game needs a lot of polish for me to really consider it.
The reason I loved EQ so much was mainly because it was the first time you could live in a 3D world with other players. This "feeling" has disappeared. You have games that aren't MMOs that do as good a job. EQ was a tech marvel during the age of Dial-up internet. It was also a great Social Outlet.
Now every game has built in Social features. I just think the MMO space is mostly dead unless you have a truly revolutionary idea.
Q3 Results for Activision Blizzard:
https://investor.activision.com/static-files/48336bdf-c1f7-4493-b3a0-6e17f00b8671
I don't play WoW, never played since beta. I've played almost every other MMO but for some reason have 0 desire to play anymore MMOs. Maybe it's because I've played a ton of them in my life, or because other "non-MMO" games are just better... i dont know... Pantheon isn't appealing to me at all atm. I do like the new look of their Ogres. The game needs a lot of polish for me to really consider it.
The reason I loved EQ so much was mainly because it was the first time you could live in a 3D world with other players. This "feeling" has disappeared. You have games that aren't MMOs that do as good a job. EQ was a tech marvel during the age of Dial-up internet. It was also a great Social Outlet.
Now every game has built in Social features. I just think the MMO space is mostly dead unless you have a truly revolutionary idea.
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Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Yeah. You haven't been keeping up with BFA's problems. Those financials don't reflect the loss of subs since BFA released. BFA was a PR bait and switch and isn't doing well at all now.
WoW still has a ton of subs, but they are not even close to the 10 million plus they use to have. Closer to 1-2 million is the best guess. FFXIV might even have more. And WoW isn't bringing in new players, just desperately trying to hold on to the ones they have.
The truth is that most of WoW's players have left over the years. And many of them are looking for a new mmo. Plus all the new players who will never play WoW because it is too old and ugly. There is a market for those players that isn't being addressed.
WoW still has a ton of subs, but they are not even close to the 10 million plus they use to have. Closer to 1-2 million is the best guess. FFXIV might even have more. And WoW isn't bringing in new players, just desperately trying to hold on to the ones they have.
The truth is that most of WoW's players have left over the years. And many of them are looking for a new mmo. Plus all the new players who will never play WoW because it is too old and ugly. There is a market for those players that isn't being addressed.
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Ravishing
Uninspiring Title
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That Q3 report was literally 8 days ago.
I think your perception of what is happening to the WoW population doesnt meet reality.
Again, I'm not a WoW player or even a fan. I just know that it seems to be holding strong.
And I've said before in this thread that Pantheon can easily be a successful game... but it's very unlikely to be a popular game.
Popularity & Success are not the same.
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Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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I think you haven't been keeping up with WoW's problems. Sub losses since BFA are too recent to be reflected in last quarter's earnings. Those earning reflect BFA's box sales, which were great. Next quarter will show most of the issues since the sub losses are very recent and ongoing. Just check our own FoH thread to get a clue.
But that isn't even the point. WoW lost most of its players over time, not recently. They don't have 10 millions subs anymore, not even close, and haven't for a long time. It's an old game, losing subs is to be expected, and they are not bringing in new players.
All those millions of players they lost over the years plus all the new ones that they are not getting is the new market. A market willing to pay for a new western mmo. WoW is old, ugly and on life support. Gold plated life support to be sure, but they are not the future or even the present.
But that isn't even the point. WoW lost most of its players over time, not recently. They don't have 10 millions subs anymore, not even close, and haven't for a long time. It's an old game, losing subs is to be expected, and they are not bringing in new players.
All those millions of players they lost over the years plus all the new ones that they are not getting is the new market. A market willing to pay for a new western mmo. WoW is old, ugly and on life support. Gold plated life support to be sure, but they are not the future or even the present.
Ravishing
Uninspiring Title
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Let me break it down for you:
WoW is still the king in the MMO space. To be a sideshow you need a game to dethrone it. There isn't one.
It's disingenuous to call a 14 year old game that is still pulling incredible numbers, a sideshow & a laughing stock.
You're right, I'm not keeping up with it. And it's EXPECTED that numbers will drop a month or 2 after an expansion. It always happens in every game. Then another expansion gets hyped & released, you have another peak, etc etc.
Believe me, I played Hearthstone, you can watch the tide ebb & flow on a daily basis when that game releases an expansion. That game loses players in like a day once everyone realizes they just got conned again... but they still go back in another 3 months to get conned again. I did that shit for 3 years. Just because BFA doesn't satisfy a vocal minority doesn't mean the game is on the precipice of destruction. WoW will be around another 10 years easily.
Why do you keep talking about 10 million subs, they havent hit that in what? 10 years? Everyone knows they don't have 10 millions subs.
And this is the main topic. See Arden's response:
I personally don't think many of those ex-WoW players would play a game like Pantheon.
WoW is a completely different type of MMO from the EQ/Pantheons. Its a themepark MMO vs a DIY-sandbox MMO.
WoW caters to a certain demographic that Pantheon doesn't.
Those that loved WoW had a better chance at picking up Wildstar, Rift maybe even GW2. (2 of these are dead).
I dont know who Pantheon will appeal to tbh. Probably people coming from LoTR Online, or maybe Black Desert (even though BD is PvP oriented.)
If I wanted to go back to an MMO I'd probably choose GW2.
I do not want to deal with forming groups and grinding dungeons for hours on end, and I know the younger gen isn't going to gravitate to it like we did 15-20 yrs ago. That style of play is dead. Those 5million+ subs that WoW lost do not want that type of game. I will bet on it.
Pantheon is a 100-500K sub game at BEST with what we are currently seeing. Which would be incredibly successful. It'll never see mainstream popularity. It won't be a top 50 streamed game, and it won't be a game you hear about in public very often.. if ever.
WoW is still the king in the MMO space. To be a sideshow you need a game to dethrone it. There isn't one.
It's disingenuous to call a 14 year old game that is still pulling incredible numbers, a sideshow & a laughing stock.
You're right, I'm not keeping up with it. And it's EXPECTED that numbers will drop a month or 2 after an expansion. It always happens in every game. Then another expansion gets hyped & released, you have another peak, etc etc.
Believe me, I played Hearthstone, you can watch the tide ebb & flow on a daily basis when that game releases an expansion. That game loses players in like a day once everyone realizes they just got conned again... but they still go back in another 3 months to get conned again. I did that shit for 3 years. Just because BFA doesn't satisfy a vocal minority doesn't mean the game is on the precipice of destruction. WoW will be around another 10 years easily.
Why do you keep talking about 10 million subs, they havent hit that in what? 10 years? Everyone knows they don't have 10 millions subs.
And this is the main topic. See Arden's response:
I personally don't think many of those ex-WoW players would play a game like Pantheon.
WoW is a completely different type of MMO from the EQ/Pantheons. Its a themepark MMO vs a DIY-sandbox MMO.
WoW caters to a certain demographic that Pantheon doesn't.
Those that loved WoW had a better chance at picking up Wildstar, Rift maybe even GW2. (2 of these are dead).
I dont know who Pantheon will appeal to tbh. Probably people coming from LoTR Online, or maybe Black Desert (even though BD is PvP oriented.)
If I wanted to go back to an MMO I'd probably choose GW2.
I do not want to deal with forming groups and grinding dungeons for hours on end, and I know the younger gen isn't going to gravitate to it like we did 15-20 yrs ago. That style of play is dead. Those 5million+ subs that WoW lost do not want that type of game. I will bet on it.
Pantheon is a 100-500K sub game at BEST with what we are currently seeing. Which would be incredibly successful. It'll never see mainstream popularity. It won't be a top 50 streamed game, and it won't be a game you hear about in public very often.. if ever.
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Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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We disagree on WoW and I'm not interested in having that discussion. Wasn't the point I was trying to make.
Mmo players (and gamers) will play a game if it's fun, engaging and tags their personal ocd requirements. And just as important, it's the new thing.
A lot of people play(ed) WoW just because a lot of people play(ed) WoW. People are basically herd animals. They will follow the herd. The herd bailed MySpace for FaceBook for example. The examples are endless.
If Pantheon, or Ashes of Creation, or whatever game hits those requirements then the herd will go there. And right now there is a very big opening for the "new" thing in the mmo space. So far nobody recently has been able to create that but that doesn't mean it won't happen. It WILL happen, but the herd isn't totally mindless. You have to fulfill it's needs. A WoW clone doesn't do that.
Personally, given their history, I have doubts that Pantheon can fulfill that need. And looking at Ashes of Creation doesn't inspire me yet either. But it doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what the herd thinks. And if Pantheon or Ashes (or some other mmo I don't know about) can satisfy the herd then they will be fucking huge.
And since those 2 are the only western mmos in development atm (that I know of, might be missing someone), they have a great opportunity to be that. It all depends on if they can deliver.
Mmo players (and gamers) will play a game if it's fun, engaging and tags their personal ocd requirements. And just as important, it's the new thing.
A lot of people play(ed) WoW just because a lot of people play(ed) WoW. People are basically herd animals. They will follow the herd. The herd bailed MySpace for FaceBook for example. The examples are endless.
If Pantheon, or Ashes of Creation, or whatever game hits those requirements then the herd will go there. And right now there is a very big opening for the "new" thing in the mmo space. So far nobody recently has been able to create that but that doesn't mean it won't happen. It WILL happen, but the herd isn't totally mindless. You have to fulfill it's needs. A WoW clone doesn't do that.
Personally, given their history, I have doubts that Pantheon can fulfill that need. And looking at Ashes of Creation doesn't inspire me yet either. But it doesn't matter what I think. What matters is what the herd thinks. And if Pantheon or Ashes (or some other mmo I don't know about) can satisfy the herd then they will be fucking huge.
And since those 2 are the only western mmos in development atm (that I know of, might be missing someone), they have a great opportunity to be that. It all depends on if they can deliver.
Mat'hir Uth Gan
Trakanon Raider
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Game started development in early-mid 2015 when Chris Perkins revived the dead project, drastically changing almost everything about it but the name in the process, and it then slowly started to form the new game on the backs of a skeleton crew for the first year. The last two years has seen the team hire legitimate talent in programming and art, and they've now secured enough investment money (Series B funding) to see them through to launch. With the team looking to expand by roughly 10-15 people in the next month or two, mostly artists and animators, they should be able to make a huge push on world building in 2019, especially now since all twelve classes and most races (M and F) are in the game. A lot still needs to happen for this game to be a success, but since Chris took the day to day development over from Brad, the project has been on an upward trajectory.
In terms of other big western MMOs Grim, I think it's just Ashes and Elyria. Ashes is probably too PvP oriented, and Elyria is doing some new things, but not sure people want their character to be forced into perma-death eventually. I certainly do not. Aion 2 might be in that mix, probably not.
I do disagree with Ravishing though. I think there is a big market for the game they are trying to make, even if younger gamers don't really know it yet. Everyone likes challenge and strategy, bringing that back to the genre is good. Bringing back some of the iconic EQ1 classes and the support role is a good thing as well. The negative aspects of EQ1, specifically the tediousness, they can limit or remove most of that. Now, in terms of sub #s, we'll have to see, I don't expect anything near WoW though.
I've gone from "this game is vaporware", which it absolutely was, to "this new guy seems to know what he's doing, maybe....", to "this game might actually launch by 2025", to "not entirely sure how it happened, but this game looks legitimately promising", which is where I'm at now. I'm still not sold they can deliver on their promises, but as they hire quality and proven talent and the streams continue to show improvement, I think it's more likely than not that this thing could be decent. I do expect a late 2020 release. I expect Alpha mid-late 2019. Short, six month beta.
In terms of other big western MMOs Grim, I think it's just Ashes and Elyria. Ashes is probably too PvP oriented, and Elyria is doing some new things, but not sure people want their character to be forced into perma-death eventually. I certainly do not. Aion 2 might be in that mix, probably not.
I do disagree with Ravishing though. I think there is a big market for the game they are trying to make, even if younger gamers don't really know it yet. Everyone likes challenge and strategy, bringing that back to the genre is good. Bringing back some of the iconic EQ1 classes and the support role is a good thing as well. The negative aspects of EQ1, specifically the tediousness, they can limit or remove most of that. Now, in terms of sub #s, we'll have to see, I don't expect anything near WoW though.
I've gone from "this game is vaporware", which it absolutely was, to "this new guy seems to know what he's doing, maybe....", to "this game might actually launch by 2025", to "not entirely sure how it happened, but this game looks legitimately promising", which is where I'm at now. I'm still not sold they can deliver on their promises, but as they hire quality and proven talent and the streams continue to show improvement, I think it's more likely than not that this thing could be decent. I do expect a late 2020 release. I expect Alpha mid-late 2019. Short, six month beta.
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It would probably be a better-than-expected hit if they could somehow release a good product around the time people get sick of WoW Classic and are looking to move on to something new, but not too new (in design). But that only gives them a couple years to finish what looks to be an incredibly slow development.
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