Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Lithose

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Not as well as a healer/tank/utility should be able to DPS, no. DPS is more ubiquitous so all classes should be able to do it at least poorly. DPS classes shouldn't be able to universally heal, tank, CC and debuff.
See, this is interesting. I completely agree with Tuco, but it's interesting to examinewhythis is the case. I think, and I think most people agree, that the cause is due to the focus of most games being purely combat oriented. Draegen was talking about it earlier, how leveling systems could be tied to achieving goals, rather than killing monsters, so progress in the game isn't all tied to "reduce HP to zero=win". And while I don't think Brad and Co should focus on exploring that too much, because it would be REALLY pushing the limits of what you can do with programming right now (And from the looks, focus is a key goal this time around)--I think it's an interesting thought exercise on how we perceive progress in MMO's, and it's one being explored in other genres (Especially stealth ones).

The only reason DPS needs to be that ubiquitous is because progress is so tied to health reduction of enemies. In table tops, that's not really the case--and I think the biggest display of how this has affected classes is the difference between the table top rogue, and the "MMO Rogue". You can see how the rogue has been turned from this largely non-combat class (Or a class meant to resolve problems without the opponent fighting), into a class that's a pure offensive combat class--all because of the whole genres technical limitations. And in a lot of cases it feels very constricting and bland because of how ubiquitous DPS needs to be.

Anyway, not sure how I'd fix that without some crazy AI that allowed someone to design all sorts of different paths for completing progression. But it's something that should be kept in mind when designing classes--DPS classes should also have a broad range of utility that works outside of combat but makes encounters easier. Like lock picking, or tracking of feign death--or a host of other utilities that give DPS unique roles to make up for the fact that their primary job has to be shared among all the classes.
 

Loser Araysar

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How to make the next great MMO

1. Ignore everything that Tad10 says, offers or suggests
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3. profit
 

Flight

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I second the 'healers doing damage' stuff. In full healing gear with full healing spec if I stopped healing and DPS'd as much as I could I should be able to deal at least 50% the damage of a similarly geared/skilled DPS class. Same goes for tanks.
Don't agree with this. Best and most enjoyable class I ever played (Bard in FFXI) did literally zero damage - but he buffed the party so well that every group wanted one. The normalization of DPS is amongst the worst things that WoW has introduced to the industry.

The main thing is this - there should be no hard and fast rules. Class design has to be formulated in perspective of the rest of the game and in relation to the other classes.

And of course what has to be understood is that in MMORPG design everything comes at a cost. Sure have a healer that can do some damage - we could call it say a Druid or a Shaman. But then they shouldn't be able to heal nearly as well as the healer who does little to no damage - call it say a Cleric.

On the other side of the coin of course there is also a cost to not 'compromising' the above view. In a game where every party needs a healer the class design has to be interesting enough to attract sufficient numbers of people to want to play one. So probably going on from this any of the Shaman, the Druid or the Cleric should all be able to heal a party. Just the party with the Cleric is going to be able to take more risks and push the envelope.

And you can still have a healer who can heal via offensive magic (Vanguard did it with Blood Mage before Rift did it with Chloromancer) or via melee.



Having said we should not start out with any hard and fast rules I will underline one - Class abilities in PvE should never, ever be balanced/nerfed/buffed/ because of PvP.
 

Creslin

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How the hell is DPS in most games normalized. I can tell you for fucking sure that if I stop healing on my holy pal in WoW I am gonna do a fuckload lot less than 50% of the damage a DPS would do in similar gear.

If the game doesnt offer respecs from heals to dps easily and for free then a heals needs to be able to dps at a rate that will allow them atleast some ability to solo.
 

Flight

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How the hell is DPS in most games normalized. I can tell you for fucking sure that if I stop healing on my holy pal in WoW I am gonna do a fuckload lot less than 50% of the damage a DPS would do in similar gear.

If the game doesnt offer respecs from heals to dps easily and for free then a heals needs to be able to dps at a rate that will allow them atleast some ability to solo.
And yet you can, as that class, swap to a build that does significant damage. Not only that but you can be a primary tank, healer or DPS.

I've never, ever felt any connection to any character in WoW for this reason. I play for 1-2 months each expansion just to explore the design and evolution and then feel no desire whatsoever to keep playing.
 

DarkAkuma_sl

shitlord
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Please generally just shut up (your face).

Thanks!
WTF? Why the heck would I deserve a comment like that?

Anyway, since my Brad didn't respond to my main issues, I'll just assume those aren't nailed down yet, or will be covered in the KickStarter. Mainly I just wanted to know about the PvP stuff. But as I read earlier in the thread, PvP stuff will be tied in with a stretch goal. So that may be hard to respond to atm.

Either way. Can't wait for the KS to learn more!

/me keeps fingers crossed to be blow away in "days, not weeks"! =)
 

Quaid

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Why is this guy still here. He's clearly trolling the forum. He's against open dungeons, FD pulling, and now DPS. He's like the anti-Christ of Everquest. How do I put this moron on ignore already?
Anti-Christ? Really? You have poor reading comprehension and an even worse imagination. I never said I was against open dungeons, I said I was against 'camp and pull' and in support of 'dungeon crawls'. Furthermore, your support of FD splitting is absolutely irrational, and not you or anyone else has provided a decent explaination for your support of it.

As far as my comment 'there should be no DPS classes', let me explain myself. It has never made sense to me that a class' role be 'pure DPS'. I'm of the mind that there should be primary roles (dmg mitigation, hp replenishment, buffing, CC, debuffing) and that every class should be capable of dealing pretty much equal DPS. I've always thought any class should be able to use any weapons, and those weapons should define your dmg based abilities.

Anyway, under my ideal system there would be 10 classes, and groups would consist of 5 individuals:

Warrior + Spellbreaker (dmg mitigation)
Priest + Druid (HP replenishment)
Shaman + Summoner (debuffs)
Bard + Knight (buffs)
Wizard + Assassins (CC)

These classes would all come with a set of abilities that helped them fulfill their primary group functions and tools to promote player interaction, but have no DPS abilities. Those all come from weapons and any class can wield anything. All classes would pretty much have equal top DPS potential in group situations, it's their class abilities that would define them.

Probably a nightmare to balance, but I think it's the system I'd enjoy most.
 

Jimbolini

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This has been attached to the bottom ofBrad's site:

"The new company will launch a Kickstarter site in January 2014 which will reveal all sorts of details about both the company and the game, including videos, concept art, and even actual in-game screenshots and short clips of the game itself. Brad has assumed the role of Chief Creative Officer and one of the Producers of Pantheon"




There's a bit extra, too. Nothing too noteworthy or unexpected but it looks like we have a nice amount of content to look forward to.
Gogojira: Thanks for all the updates, you are a fast !@#$% when it comes to them.
 

Lethality

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I'd be surprised if it isn't a stretch goal. I like VG crafting/harvesting as well, but it's not as central to an MMO as the adventuring experience and it's something that can be easily added later once they've got monthly subs. But I'd be happy to be wrong.
I don't think a proper resource and/or crafting system can be added on later if not designed in from the start? this, if done right, is as foundational as combat. I agree the scope of the game really starts to creep into another Vanguard at that point, but this is what I think is so hard about making an MMO - the systems need to be so broad from the start, and the world so massive.

Hoping for a player-driven economy akin to SWG, but with some ideas that still allow for the "item hunt" game that so many folks love.
 

Quaid

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It troubles me that classes are included in stretch goals. 'What can players do?' should have been one of the first questions answered in the initial design. Why does a class exist if it doesn't have a role that is critical in answering a problem that the game's MOBs present? If said class is a stretch goal, that implies it's job can be done by some other, already included, class.
 

Pyros

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Tell that to League of Legends.
League sells content too, and I'd be surprised if their cosmetics sales were much higher than their content sales, content being champions in this case. Better example would be PoE, which is a small studio game and is sustained entirely on cosmetics(technically also storage pages but since it's F2P you could in theory just create more accounts to get more space, as well as make mules, so it's mostly quality of life). Dota2 also, but this is made by Valve and shit and it has its own market so it's a lot less of a good example of F2P done right since the support and infrastructure behind the game is way bigger than anything any other studio could afford, and especially not a game that needs kickstarter funding.

Don't mind subbing all that much to mmos but devs should think of ways to get people to come back to the game and try it other than limited time offers and shit. If I want to play an old mmo that has a sub to see what changed, I don't want to pay 10euros and if there's no offer at the time to try it out for free even for a couple of days, then I simply won't bother. They should all have some system where if you bought the game before, you get 2days free to try the game again, starting say 2months after launch. And it renews every 2 months. This lets you pick up the game again whenever you want and fuck around for a bit see if it's worth resubbing.
 

Orsenfelt_sl

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I've always thought any class should be able to use any weapons, and those weapons should define your dmg based abilities.
Like GuildWars 2? Ihatethat. I agree you should be able to wield pretty much any weapon (Because your Necro-ness preventing you from swinging a Rusty Bastard Sword doesn't make any sense)butI think your abilities should be separate from your items. Some abilities can be more effective with certain weapons but if you want to go around trying to shield-bash with a dagger then that is your business.

I'd like a skill system like EVE, only use based. Everyone has potential access to everything.. it's just a matter of choosing how you want to play and playing that way to get better at it. The game doesn't have to itemise around it, keep the usual hammers-for-melee and robes-for-casters separations but don't stop players from using either. If you, a squishy Necromancer, want to gimp yourself by carrying around a big 2-handed hammer instead of a more traditional caster item then on you go.

The game should allow you to make shitty decisions. Plate wearing caster with no mana? Go for it.
 

Quaid

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Less like GW2 and more like TESO.... But weapon skills would simply be moves you do with your weapons. No buffs or spells or whatever.

For example, a 2 handed sword:

Skill 1: basic 'auto' attack, single target slash.
Skill 2: big swing, AOE around caster
Skill 3: downward swing, large single target dmg, AOE frontal ground impact
Skill 4: hilt bash, medium dmg + spell interrupt
 
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More bard envy. Must be a monk thing.
wink.png
It usually is a monk thing
biggrin.png
 
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It troubles me that classes are included in stretch goals. 'What can players do?' should have been one of the first questions answered in the initial design. Why does a class exist if it doesn't have a role that is critical in answering a problem that the game's MOBs present? If said class is a stretch goal, that implies it's job can be done by some other, already included, class.
Well, the game might start with a Warrior and Paladin but the Shadowknight might be a stretch goal. Make sense?
 

Quaid

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Still implies the SKs abilities are unnecessary to solving a problem the game presents.
 

Quineloe

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Tell that to League of Legends.
Do you have numbers? LOL item shop definitely isn't just cosmetic.

League sells content too, and I'd be surprised if their cosmetics sales were much higher than their content sales, content being champions in this case. Better example would be PoE, which is a small studio game and is sustained entirely on cosmetics(technically also storage pages but since it's F2P you could in theory just create more accounts to get more space, as well as make mules, so it's mostly quality of life). Dota2 also, but this is made by Valve and shit and it has its own market so it's a lot less of a good example of F2P done right since the support and infrastructure behind the game is way bigger than an
But when you read the POE thread, you'll see most people bought more and more tabs for their stash, but I haven't seen anyone saying they bought the yellow town portal...


Another example, when POTBS went F2P, after a few months the developers outright stated 10% of all item shop revenue was purely cosmetic. Account upgrades and items such as the latest ship building plans made 90% of their revenue, and they had lots and lots of cosmetic shit in their shop. Sails, flags, avatar clothing, hair styles, tattoos...
 

Mr Creed

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Not as well as a healer/tank/utility should be able to DPS, no. DPS is more ubiquitous so all classes should be able to do it at least poorly. DPS classes shouldn't be able to universally heal, tank, CC and debuff.
Repeated from 50 pages ago, but just do away with pure dps classes. Give each class access to at least one role (tank/heal/cc/suuport) and give each class the ability to dps. Then let the player decide in which direction he wants to develop his character. No respecs (refund if you nerf shit).
 

Pyros

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Do you have numbers? LOL item shop definitely isn't just cosmetic.



But when you read the POE thread, you'll see most people bought more and more tabs for their stash, but I haven't seen anyone saying they bought the yellow town portal...


Another example, when POTBS went F2P, after a few months the developers outright stated 10% of all item shop revenue was purely cosmetic. Account upgrades and items such as the latest ship building plans made 90% of their revenue, and they had lots and lots of cosmetic shit in their shop. Sails, flags, avatar clothing, hair styles, tattoos...
Most people buy the stash tabs because it's convenient and really useful in a game where you tend to loot a ton of shit, but you don't technically need them as you can create 24characters per account and create accounts in a matter of minute(and dual log them to transfer stuff). It's just that if you're not big on cosmetics like me, you either don't spend any money or the little you spend is on stash tabs.

It's still a lot different than league where you'll be tempted to buy xp boost to get out of the shit leveling time where you play people who start with naturally higher stats than you(due to masteries), IP boosts to be able to buy full rune pages for the main roles(generally need a couple), champions because unlocking them via IP means you don't get to buy runes(conflicting ressources) and only after that you can think about buying cosmetics too. But for example the fact you need to own a champion before you can even consider cosmetics for it and the fact you need a full set of rune and be level 30 to actually enjoy the game on an even level regardless of skill makes it pretty tough to not spend at least a bit of money. Shit isn't too overpriced though, so it's not all bad but I can't say I'd want to use LoL monetization system as a model for anything.

I kinda liked the GW2 way though. You buy the box, that helps the devs a lot in terms of paying for the game costs, and then you have a not too assissine item shop on the side to buy either convenient shit(more bank slots) or cosmetics, AND you can buy them with ingame ressources too, albeit at a shitty trade rate. That was the best system I think, I never felt like I had to buy anything other than bank slots(or was it inventory slots) but I bought these with ingame gold anyway so I never had to pay for anything. I don't like it as much when you start having to pay for basic game mechanics like you want to craft you need some item so your craft success rate is 100% instead of 25%(korean F2P) or you don't get to play this dungeon unless you buy it with money or by grinding some other shit for a long time but since all dungeons are locked almost, you need to grind way too much to even access content.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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Don't agree with this. Best and most enjoyable class I ever played (Bard in FFXI) did literally zero damage - but he buffed the party so well that every group wanted one. The normalization of DPS is amongst the worst things that WoW has introduced to the industry.

The main thing is this - there should be no hard and fast rules. Class design has to be formulated in perspective of the rest of the game and in relation to the other classes.

And of course what has to be understood is that in MMORPG design everything comes at a cost. Sure have a healer that can do some damage - we could call it say a Druid or a Shaman. But then they shouldn't be able to heal nearly as well as the healer who does little to no damage - call it say a Cleric.

On the other side of the coin of course there is also a cost to not 'compromising' the above view. In a game where every party needs a healer the class design has to be interesting enough to attract sufficient numbers of people to want to play one. So probably going on from this any of the Shaman, the Druid or the Cleric should all be able to heal a party. Just the party with the Cleric is going to be able to take more risks and push the envelope.

And you can still have a healer who can heal via offensive magic (Vanguard did it with Blood Mage before Rift did it with Chloromancer) or via melee.



Having said we should not start out with any hard and fast rules I will underline one - Class abilities in PvE should never, ever be balanced/nerfed/buffed/ because of PvP.
As always you make excellent points. I was more speaking to raids in regard to all classes being able to DPS.