Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

mkopec_sl said:

There has to be some level of downtime IMO. I mean, why have resources if you dont have to manage them? Or they are full 5 seconds after you fight? Maybe not the 10 min we used to sit medding after a bad pull or whatever in EQ, but there definitely needs to be more downtime.

I think the way EQ is right now is a good mix. They have out of combat regen that kicks in after some seconds, but when you are in combat its still all about resource management.

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Oh man that hits on something that drives me insane. In combat vs out of combat differences. I like things being different for change of position or whatever. Like sitting or laying down you regen faster than standing up, and take more damage if something gets the drop on you... Having some random flag where you can no longer use XYZ ability or cast ABC spell or whatever because some NPC is pissed at you is just stupid.

I get it that some "in combat" disadvantages exist to promote the idea that you are all tense and your adrenaline is going crazy or something because a giant bear is chasing you... And of course to allow for fast out of combat regen and preventing situations that trivialize encounters because of powerful out of combat abilities. I've just never experienced a system that did this well enough to not be cumbersome and lead to annoying shit like some mob 16 miles away being pissed at you and preventing you from sitting down lol.

Aradune_sl said:

Indeed, we like VG's classes and how they played and felt different. We may or may not call them something different in Pantheon, but the influence will be there. Some classes (and races) will be stretch goals -- I'm hoping we get to implement them all before launch.

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I would like, perhaps as a stretch-goal, each race to get one unique class. Like Bladesingers for elves or something. I think that would add a lot of immersion to the game.

Blitz_sl said:

Like this idea a lot, as long as they're not ridiculously easy to obtain.

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Yeah, they should be decently expensive and/or hard to find in certain cases.

Troy_Costisick_sl said:

I would like, perhaps as a stretch-goal, each race to get one unique class. Like Bladesingers for elves or something. I think that would add a lot of immersion to the game.

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Class? No. Every race? No. Okay with job/profession. Gnomes tinker. Red pandas pirate.

Hateyou_sl said:

The argument of "things don't make sense" when ur flinging fireballs, instant healing mortal wounds inflicted by dragons, warping instantly all over the world, reincarnating all the time, and all that other shit is ridiculous. TRY to suspend your disbelief of someone pretending to be dead and have fun playing a game.

Pretend it's an ancient monk magic spell that clouds the monsters mind every time the monk plays dead, since you seem to accept all the spells as just fine.

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It isn't the same thing. Shooting fireballs is accepted because it is a fantasy world and magic is "normal" there. Playing dead, hitting your target, playing dead, rinse repeat is just fucking idiotic. My dog wouldn't fall for that shit, but I am suppose to accept that the god I just failed to pull 5 times hasn't figured it out yet?

Telling people to suspend disbelief shouldn't be a license to just do any stupid mechanic you want. By that reasoning no one should ever diss on WoW again. Every mechanic they do is great because it is "fantasy".

Lost Ranger_sl said:

It isn't the same thing. Shooting fireballs is accepted because it is a fantasy world and magic is "normal" there. Playing dead, hitting your target, playing dead, rinse repeat is just fucking idiotic. My dog wouldn't fall for that shit, but I am suppose to accept that the god I just failed to pull 5 times hasn't figured it out yet?

Telling people to suspend disbelief shouldn't be a license to just do any stupid mechanic you want. By that reasoning no one should ever diss on WoW again. Every mechanic they do is great because it is "fantasy".

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So you hated Star Wars then?

Aradune_sl said:

Indeed, we like VG's classes and how they played and felt different. We may or may not call them something different in Pantheon, but the influence will be there. Some classes (and races) will be stretch goals -- I'm hoping we get to implement them all before launch.

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I loved Vanguard, but if I had the choice between the Vanguard Necromancer and the Everquest Necromancer, I would choose the Everquest Necromancer with out question. I played a Vanguard Necromancer to max, and Everquest Necromancer to 75 when it was max level. The Everquest Necromancer was night and day more powerful.

Disliking a dumb mechanic isn't enough to get me to hate something in its entirety. I feel sorry for you if that is how you approach games/movies.

Bilbo Faggins_sl said:

I loved Vanguard, but if I had the choice between the Vanguard Necromancer and the Everquest Necromancer, I would choose the Everquest Necromancer with out question. I played a Vanguard Necromancer to max, and Everquest Necromancer to 75 when it was max level. The Everquest Necromancer was night and day more powerful.

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Feeling powerful is something most MMOs fail at now sadly. I had a necro and a bard during EQ. Both made you feel all powerful if played right.

Draegan_sl said:

The complexity issue is another thing I really think future games need to address as well. Games seem to waffle between simple and complex combat system. Rift was simple with it's macro system. This offered almost zero interaction for the most part. Then you have complex, which are classes that have to maintain 3 dots, 2 buffs, 10 abilities and worry about positioning at the same time.

The more complex combat is the more attention you have to spend on it. These leads to short dungeons, because that much focus for too long becomes tiring for players.

Conversely simplistic combat system lead to tedium and boredom which is unhealthy of any aspect of a game (See: Wildstar).

This is why I'm an advocate for limited ability sets. Which is why, as you mentioned, MOBAs are probably the most popular online medium right now. Easy to play, hard to master and very fun to actually watch. When was the last time an MMORPG was fun to watch?

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I have mixed feelings on this really. If I'm going to play for an hour (especially soloing) WoW's combat is about 198723981729837198721X more fun and engaging than EQ's and would be a better spent hour for entertainment. That said, if I decided to dungeon grind in WoW as a warrior after an hour or two it becomes extremely tiring maintaining aggro on 7 mobs every pull (it's easier now but god having to sunder individual mobs back in the day? lol) and keeping up shouts, and watching for reactionaries and procs to keep up good dps etc etc. It's like work. In EQ after a few hours in the same group, things would tend to just get more ridiculous and chatty to make up for the tedium.

Too simplified is bad as well IMO. GW2 has some of the most boring and uninteresting combat ever even if it maintains pace on par with that in WoW. It was so dumbed down feeling. Maybe it was just that the similar pace that had me expecting to be doing shit nonstop like in WoW but I was bored long before I hit max level and you level pretty quick in that game. I don't know.

I think I'd like a slower paced game where managing a few resources is key rather than being able to maintain an endless rotation of quick fire abilities. Like EQ moved at a snails pace compared with WoW in terms of ability usage but still felt just as intense waiting for mana as your tank is near death and just as you get enough you pop up with CHeal landing just as your tank fell to the floor saving the day. Maintaining mana, keeping track of buffs, watching health bars, timing mezzes, debuffs, etc were all important at that slow pace. Wasted mana led to massive downtime or shortages or even death. A slow could make healing your tank way more mana efficient.

I'm not saying the game has to be as slow as EQ but I think I'd definitely prefer slower more meaningful actions.

Lost Ranger_sl said:

It isn't the same thing. Shooting fireballs is accepted because it is a fantasy world and magic is "normal" there. Playing dead, hitting your target, playing dead, rinse repeat is just fucking idiotic. My dog wouldn't fall for that shit, but I am suppose to accept that the god I just failed to pull 5 times hasn't figured it out yet?

Telling people to suspend disbelief shouldn't be a license to just do any stupid mechanic you want. By that reasoning no one should ever diss on WoW again. Every mechanic they do is great because it is "fantasy".

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Obviously you can't name a single thing you like about the games mechanics. So ok, we get it. No one is forcing you to play, or post here. Its fine. There is tons of games out there you can choose from.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Prime example of this was the moronic decision upon EQ2 launch for the "locked" encounters while fighting. I see someone getting thrashed in open world by some mob and try and help them , unless they "released" the encounter I couldn't help them. The devs putting that in to try and combat power-leveling was one of the stupidest things I've seen.

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I hate all that sort of shit. Did you ever try Rubies of Eventide? When you went into combat it was like an FF game or something you were in your own little fight.

I honestly just don't get the need to try to combat twinking, power leveling, kiting (where it isn't a super obvious mechanics exploit like mobs stuck in the geometry), kill stealing, grinding, etc. This sort of thing has led to so much shit that I feel has been nothing but detrimental to these types of games: Level based gear, level based buffs, bind on equip gear, locked encounters, instancing, shitty in/out of combat mechanics, retarded tag systems for loot rights, artificial timers/dailies/weeklies/fuckyoulies, EXP caps, etc etc etc.

Don't get me wrong I have been playing MMOs pretty much nonstop since I started EQ in 99 and I know there are always vocal people crying about powerleveling, twinking, gold sales, ebayed characters, or whatever injustice they feel has been done to them because someone has a level Erudite SK in full Blood Ember and it just totally fills them with rage.. I just never felt those people were in the minority. I've also never read any sort of "F you guys I'm out" post decrying twinking or power levelling as the main cause of their departure (though I'm sure it exists).

Merlin_sl said:

Obviously you can't name a single thing you like about the games mechanics. So ok, we get it. No one is forcing you to play, or post here. Its fine. There is tons of games out there you can choose from.

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Fuck you and fuck anyone who tries to silence discussion about this game with this bullshit defense. What? Too much getting owned in the politics thread so you turn it around on people here? Balls grew two sizes now that you have a crew of people who agree with your opinions?

Yes, we all want this game to follow early generation MMORPG principles, but to ignore the last decade of design (for better or worse) like it didn't happen, is totally absurd.

Take the 'Go play WoW' bullshit back to the Vanguard beta forums. We are all too smart for that here.

Merlin_sl said:

Obviously you can't name a single thing you like about the games mechanics. So ok, we get it. No one is forcing you to play, or post here. Its fine. There is tons of games out there you can choose from.

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Spare me the offended fanboy routine. Just because I don't drop to my knees and praise all things EQ doesn't mean I hated the game, and it doesn't mean I have no interest in this one. Also, Im not going to stop discussing, or sharing my opinions on game mechanics just because you don't like them. I couldn't possibly care less if that upsets you. Put me on ignore if you can't handle some criticism.

popsicledeath_sl said:

I think the best direction is designing a game where you CC first, then engage. Give more classes pre-combat CC tools. Your enchanter can mez a mob, sure. But your rogue can lock one down pre-pull. Your wizards has a magic cage or whatever on long cooldown or that's out of combat only. Your shaman can root. Etc. Make many/most of the pre-combat abilities. You then have combat designed where you come to a group of mobs, plan an attack, pick targets, synchronize your watches, execute cc (including which mob the tank will grab), and now you've got to kill them in order, deal with any early breaks, and are on the clock to kill them before they're all free from mez.

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Haha this is pretty much 100% of Vanilla WoW pulling (with the classes a little different). Personally I like the actual CC classes thing like Bard/Enchanter in EQ, Crat/Trader in AO, Healer/Mentalist/Bard/Sorcerer/Minstrel in DAoC, etc. more than the each class can CC one mob thing. I feel those classes have flavor. The only real problem I have with them is that they always seem like they would be harder to balance and that all encounters would have to be designed based HEAVILY around the existence of such a class. I liked the EQ group mechanics/dynamics a lot.

Lost Ranger_sl said:

Disliking a dumb mechanic isn't enough to get me to hate something in its entirety. I feel sorry for you if that is how you approach games/movies.

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lol. It's a mechanic that works, you just don't like it. You not liking something doesn't make it a bad mechanic. You tried to argue that it doesn't make sense in a fantasy world, because you don't like it. I'm just pointing out that there are lots of justifications for it in a fantasy world. So stop being defensive and just admit you don't like the mechanic instead of making silly arguments based on what does or does not make "sense" in a fantasy world.

Lost Ranger_sl said:

Spare me the offended fanboy routine. Just because I don't drop to my knees and praise all things EQ doesn't mean I hated the game, and it doesn't mean I have no interest in this one. Also, Im not going to stop discussing, or sharing my opinions on game mechanics just because you don't like them. I couldn't possibly care less if that upsets you. Put me on ignore if you can't handle some criticism.

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Why does liking something like FD make you a fanboy? Lol

I think all these things need to be looked at. But making things believe able isn't really a good reason to scrap an ability.. I'm guessing you're a ranger in games? Prob in EQ.. Is it believable that you can track a powerful raid mob? I mean he's so powerful he shouldn't show on tracking.. It's just silly. FD could easily be enhanced to make it more realistic if it's really that necessary..

Aradune_sl said:

How about... you can measure it in days, but not weeks.

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Meh. You should wait until pantheonrotf twitter is at least 1,000. That's a good proxy for how far and wide news has spread about the game. You want a really good day one on kickstarter.

FD splitting should have been nerfed into the ground as soon as it was discovered. That shit trivialized a huge number of encounters at every level of gameplay, and diluted the roles of CC classes.