Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Utnayan_sl said:

Well, I would say 1.4 for 2 with a giant rescue on the second.

John Smedley saw a dollar sign opportunity there.

I understand your reasoning. But you would save money if you purchased the game for $49.99 (or less) and then the lifetime sub at $149.99 after you see the game and see if it actually ships. And that is the downside of kickstarter. Out of all the games and timelines, if it turns into vaporware, you get nothing nor your money back. Pretty rotten deal if you ask me. But I know the publishers and relics love it. Without sounding any more negative (Which I do not think is possible at this point) what a great way to take advantage of people without having to absorb any risk, no accountability, and nothing to give should the invest prove worthwhile other than a license to use the service/product.

Just how gullible can we get as gamers? (Me included)

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I'm risking my lurker status here but..

What other option do we have? I've been waiting years for something that isn't a WoW clone to arrive and it hasn't happened and have serious doubts it ever will.

It's an investment like any other and will never be without risk. The potential payoff makes it worth it for me.

Convo_sl said:

we all know why.. it's b/c the people who play games like this are wrapped up in EQ and VG which cost them nothing.

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I don't think you or Ut have a good understanding of SOE/Sony's finances.

Sony Loses $2.2 Billion in Market Value After Forecast Cut - Bloomberg

Utnayan apparently believes Smedley is sitting on a throne at SOE with a big pile of cash at his feet. Sony is hurting, the only bright spot is the Playstation

Utnayan_sl said:

/\/\ Funny thing is, 75% of everything that made EQ magical was a design mistake which then became player made styles of play.

You can't recreate that. And Brad should have figured that out with Vanguard.

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That's called emergent play. And emergent play is what you get when you give players lots of freedom to play how they want and explore how they want. Emergent play is the holy grail of game design, and that's why fans of EQ remember it so fondly IMHO.

While I disagree with Ut on the KS principle overall , I respect his skepticism overall about the market and am right with him on ESO and other ideas. I'm actually not all that far from him even on this one , as in I dropped the 250 on this purely because Brad I believe is my best chance to get a game like I want. The realistic side of me (my wife calls it cynical , we have that argument a lot it seems ), is keeping my hopes low , not because of Brad , but because I've been so disappointed over the past several years in mmo developers and publishers.

What was done to two of my favorite IP's , Warhammer and Star Wars , in mmo form was pathetic and I refuse to pay a cent to see a company rape the Elder Scrolls name. GW2 seemed to me like a study in how to make a class system as terrible as possible , TSW launched with chat not functioning and animations that made EQ beta animations look smooth exciting , so on and so on.

So while disagreeing with Ut on whether or not anyone should donate to KS , I am so very disgusted with the entire mmo business as a whole, that if this doesn't work out , and/or some enterprising group of gamers doesn't take the EQL tools and make us a version of an EQ/VG style game that's not the "Troll Ninja Paladins with Guns" I see EQN turning out to be , I might finally be done with what is my favorite hobby. I get where he is coming from.

On the SOE note , I realize I am going to be in the extreme minority here , but if the KS gets funded , and Smedley and SOE want to silent partner it for a portion of the funds , or end up doing the original VG style hosting deal and support the game to get funded with Brad still fully in control , I'd have zero issue with it. If it gets my game funded/published and hosted that I want , I don't care who else puts money into it.

Utnayan_sl said:

Which makes me about 1% more optimistic than if it would be the same good ol' boy group chasing the dream of 1999.

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Troy_Costisick_sl said:

That's called emergent play. And emergent play is what you get when you give players lots of freedom to play how they want and explore how they want. Emergent play is the holy grail of game design, and that's why fans of EQ remember it so fondly IMHO.

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Don't argue logic with Ut, he's convinced himself not to pay the cost of a cheap dinner ($20) for at least the Beta because apparently giant corporations like Sony should be making niche games for small audiences that might net them an extra $1,000,000 a year (if they're lucky) instead of, you know, trying to make a game like EQNext that can run equally well on the Playstation 4 as well as the PC and could net them an extra $50-100,000,000 year. Holy fuck

Soygen_sl said:

Don't let Utnayan fool y'all. Who do you think is the $10,000 pledge?!

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It's either Smedley or the Guild leader of Citizen. Edit: And my money would be on Smed.

zzeris_sl said:

I personally don't like a lot of single group camping. Break up the group, move on to the next, try to advance towards a goal. Splitting up a pack one at a time and then just sitting there waiting for the respawn? Boring as hell and not very challenging either. We want challenge right?

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That only works if the dungeon your in isn't packed full of players (KC). That's the main reason players sat at a camp. When KC wasn't at maximum capicity, our group would work our way from the door, through the courtyards, up the stairs (or down to the basement), and hit the hand room etc... Also keep in mind the reason for camping is waiting for that boss mob to drop a specific drop. Sometimes it took hours but it was worth the wait.

arallu_sl said:

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Brad and others need to take this , hit Reddit with a "here's your chance to get your mmo's back" theme and run with it. Put the word out in humorous way like this that still hits home. Sure some will hop on to blast it , but it will get folks talking on there and again , press for the KS is needed more still.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Brad and others need to take this , hit Reddit with a "here's your chance to get your mmo's back" theme and run with it. Put the word out in humorous way like this that still hits home. Sure some will hop on to blast it , but it will get folks talking on there and again , press for the KS is needed more still.

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Brad should stop worrying about people on Reddit or elsewhere asking him about his past and just be like "shit happened, yeah, but I'm over that now" - look at Robert Downey Jr. He was a basket case, did rehab, kicked the heroin habit and now is one of the top 3 or 4 paid actors in Hollywood. And of course, everyone on Reddit smokes Pot like a madman, so it's not like they're freaking Mormons there.

I feel exactly as Ut does.

tad10_sl said:

I don't think you or Ut have a good understanding of SOE/Sony's finances.

Sony Loses $2.2 Billion in Market Value After Forecast Cut - Bloomberg

Utnayan apparently believes Smedley is sitting on a throne at SOE with a big pile of cash at his feet. Sony is hurting, the only bright spot is the Playstation

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It's not that I don't understand, I just think they are more likely to invest in this project if it does overly well during the KS.. Hypothetically speaking.. and I'm being generous since they don't have a huge amount of backers right now, but if this thing ends up with some crazy number of supporters? SoE can easily do the math based on just backers.. It's not a huge risk to invest at that point for them.. especially if they know how much of the pie they will be getting. There will be a way for them to project a safe investment. Not to mention the ability to actually test the game prior. So there is still a very good chance of them scraping up some cash regardless of their situation and wanting to get in on the action. Ideally we want people kicking down Brad's door to get in.. That means he has a gem on his hands.

tad10_sl said:

Brad should stop worrying about people on Reddit or elsewhere asking him about his past and just be like "shit happened, yeah, but I'm over that now" - look at Robert Downey Jr. He was a basket case, did rehab, kicked the heroin habit and now is one of the top 3 or 4 paid actors in Hollywood. And of course, everyone on Reddit smokes Pot like a madman, so it's not like they're freaking Mormons there.

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+1 to this. Admit the past but then say you're over it now and stronger for it then move on.

tad10_sl said:

Brad should stop worrying about people on Reddit or elsewhere asking him about his past and just be like "shit happened, yeah, but I'm over that now" - look at Robert Downey Jr. He was a basket case, did rehab, kicked the heroin habit and now is one of the top 3 or 4 paid actors in Hollywood. And of course, everyone on Reddit smokes Pot like a madman, so it's not like they're freaking Mormons there.

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Agreed, the good Reddit can do PR wise during the KS far outweighs any negative. On the subject you are referring to , he can do a simple , "we all make mistakes , I screwed up , learned my lesson and want to make an even better game now , that's all the talking I'm going to do about that now , so deal with it and let's talk about making a real mmo again".

I think he's be surprised in the number of folks that would support him on that , again , the main thing though is it would get more folks talking and the Pantheon name and KS would spread even more.

popsicledeath_sl said:

No system is 'cleaner' than just letting players out level their friends, but fragmenting mico-communities so the people who can't play as often are completely turned away from the game isn't something even 'hardcore' fans will support, I don't think. There is a lot of room to negotiate when it comes to travel and exp curves and open vs instanced, etc, but I think some sort of system has to be in place that lets friends play together, whether it's mentoring or players scaling to zones or allowing twinking/PLing or the brotherhood system. They have to have something.

I personally like the Brotherhood system. Mentoring makes players feel like they have to slum it and repeat content and basically be held back by their friends. Scaling everyone to a zone's level is, I hope, not even being discussed for this game. Imo the best solution is to let the friends who play more help their friends be pulled forward and allow twinking/PLing. And who cares if I level an alt or buff/port bot on a second account.

What other options are there? Or should your friends who can't play as often just be shit out of luck?

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I think if they have fewer levels and leave out some artifical limits like resists/misses going up with levels (higher level have more dmg/HP/ac already, no need to force extra misses), it'll be ok without mentoring. The lower player will bring less to the table but wont be entirely dead weight like a level 18 is in Guk.

Lithose_sl said:

I think, as you mentioned, this wasn't a problem with mounts but rather how they were handled. Being able to whistle one into existence whenever made them essentially a buff every character had. If instead mounts were iterated from the UO system, where they were part of the world, and could die or would need upkeep and say, wouldn't go into dungeons so they'd need stables and all sorts of other overhead--they could actually be a mechanic that would be used in a more discriminate fashion, like say only for long range travel.

I feel like there are a million ways to iterate on the concept of mounts that were never explored because they essentially became a "buff with graphics". Fun ways, too. Even ways that promote social interaction (Like having to buy your mount from a druid or ranger---because they have the ability to find them, and train them, from the wild). Lots of cool areas there that were never explored because it became popular to view mounts as a specific type of mechanic that only offered benefits, rather than pros and cons.

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Mounts are fine, I want a huge diversity of mounts. As with everything, dont look at how WoW did it. If you break it down to pure mechanics, mounts are Jboots. You like Jboots right? So let them add Jboots that look cool, appropriate effort required, and it's all good. I think taking a ton of effort to revolutionize mounts is not the way to go here.

Utnayan_sl said:

Last I checked, I am a consumer, not a publisher. I will purchase a product. That doesn't mean I spend money developing it, especially when I'm about 99% sure SOE has this backed. If I did invest money into a project such as this at some of the pricing they are asking, it would be a company investment where I would expect a return on investment in the like of company stock or profit sharing. If I spent $10,000 on something to shake hands with a few folks and design a dungeon/raid without anything else in it for me from a monetary perspective,Ishould also have my internet taken away by court order.

If he comes out with a decent enough game in what I have been looking for, I will purchase it. That's his reward. Not sure how that is leeching since he would get a box sale and it's a subscription based game so obviously would be receiving subscription revenue as long as I play it. If he comes out with a pile of shit, which unfortunately is very likely knowing his history and this genre and what will likely be the publishing company behind him, I would wait for it to go free to play while SOE microtransactions the shit out of it if I am bored.

Good luck to the guy. I am sure he has battled his fair share of demons. Out of all the relics, where there is literally 0% hope between Rich Vogel, Matt Firor, Dave Georgeson, Paul Sage, etc because they have never once in their life actually faced accountability, I think Brad in there somewhere has faced a couple things. At least one would hope. Which makes me about 1% more optimistic than if it would be the same good ol' boy group chasing the dream of 1999.

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Hi Utnayan, good to see you.

SOE does NOT have this backed. They're putting everything they have into Landmark/EQN.

I understand why you don't want to 'pre-pay' and want to wait for the final game and then purchase. I'm sure a lot of people feel that way. That said, I think the world is changing here. People now have a chance to help make something that would be too niche for a publisher or developer to touch, at least initially. Speaking as a gamer, that sounds great to me. Even speaking just as a fan of games, music, etc. For example, if my favorite band (an obscure progressive metal band called Fates Warning) went on Kickstarter and raised money to make an album in the style they used to play in, I would pledge like crazy. But that's just me.

Convo_sl said:

It's not that I don't understand, I just think there more likely to invest in this project if it does overly well during the KS.. Hypothetically speaking.. and I'm being generous since they don't have a huge amount of backers right now, but if this thing ends up with some crazy number of supporters? SoE can easily do the math based on just backers.. It's not a huge risk to invest at that point for them.. especially if they know how much of the pie they will be getting. There will be a way for them to project a safe investment. Not to mention the ability to actually test the game prior. So there is still a very good chance of them scraping up some cash regardless of their situation and wanting to get in on the action.

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I honestly don't think Smed has the money to buy or fund a game. By all accounts Smedley is a nepotistic bastard and likes to hire and keep "his friends" one reason I think he's a terrible CEO for SOE - but he fired a bunch of his friends in the RIF, including Brad. That means (a) his budget was drastically cut by his boss or (b) revenues from his games was terrible last year or (c) both.

Maybe I'm wrong, I don't have SOE/Sony's finance in front of me (beyond their filings) - but the fact that Smedley would fire his friends suggests money issues.

Dahkoht_sl said:

Agreed, the good Reddit can do PR wise during the KS far outweighs any negative. On the subject you are referring to , he can do a simple , "we all make mistakes , I screwed up , learned my lesson and want to make an even better game now , that's all the talking I'm going to do about that now , so deal with it and let's talk about making a real mmo again".

I think he's be surprised in the number of folks that would support him on that , again , the main thing though is it would get more folks talking and the Pantheon name and KS would spread even more.

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Agree with this and with Troy (lets all hug it out now - Brad? you in).