Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Zefah_sl said:
Yes. We know he was full of shit with Vanguard and all the pie in the sky stuff. So far, he's been more grounded with this project and isn't promising the world. I know some of you will never get over Vanguard's failings, but I'm happy to drop some cash to give him one last chance to make something that appeals to me.
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Has he been? When all he needed to present was a proposal to get a studio up and running so they could get back into the business of making games a lot of us are wanting, Brad instead opened his big mouth, started making statements and promises about game features of a game they aren't equiped to deliver the goods on because they first need the fucking funds to set up the studio to really start building the game.

What's scarier is that with Vanguard he was promising pie-in-the-sky that couldn't be delivered. In Pantheon he's promising very basic things, like introductory information on classes or a business plan, that can't be delivered.

He turned something simple into a clusterfuck because the ONE time The Vision should have been all about himself, he tried to make it about the game, when the game doesn't exist.
 
M

Merlin_sl

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Aeiouy_sl said:
This is the weird thing for me though. I read this thread, I read all the ks information. What was said that people felt mislead about. It was pretty clear to me they were at the very beginning of the project. I just don't see any comments or statements they made where they pretended otherwise.

People act like they were told a working demo was coming even though everything they talked about indicated they were at the very start of the kickstart. So regardless of the quality of the ks, I don't see how people got mislead by this. Some people potentially blew it up in their head but all the early information brad and other people posted indicated they did not have a lot to start with. It is fine not to like that or want to support it, but to claim it was misleading seems totally off base.
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Well, when Brad states, "We've been working on this for six months", it leads you to believe they would have more then class descriptions like,"A cleric heals and wears plate armor"finished.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Aeiouy_sl said:
Okay well that is on you I guess. Not really hard to imagine.
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Nobody has ever done it in an MMO and they put no kind of design document out there, no kind of combat information, no concept art, nothing out but it is "on me" for not easily imagining this retarded idea. Got it shill.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Skanda_sl said:
So is this duel class thing going to be two different talent trees like WoW or like EQ2 where you hit level 10 and finally get to pick your class for realz this time?
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Who knows.... I mean, like an actual question: who knows? Because I'm not convinced they do.

I mean, why would Darky Knight be it's own class, and paladin a subclass of Crusader? If they were planning sub classes, wouldn't 'knight' then turn into 'dark' knight and 'pussy' knight? Not a Crusader class where BOTH sub-classes feel tacked on at the last minute? Explain that shit.
 
Zefah

Zefah

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mkopec_sl said:
I think the dude was a dev on the project.

But yeah he got fired and now hes disgruntled with a bone to pick. I dont blame him.
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I bet he was. He has good reason to be pissed and to never trust Brad McQuaid again. His livelihood was jeopardized due to the poor management of the project.

With that said, he shouldn't expect people who weren't in his position to share the seething hatred. We all lost a lot less on Vanguard's failure, and some of us even had fun with what made it in the game (perhaps despite Brad McQuaid and thanks to developers like him).

Either way, I'm not interested in letting the disaster of Sigil affect my willingness to give Brad one last chance, especially with a smaller-scale and more focused project. Rather than coming at the project from a position of arrogance and feeling like he's untouchable, Brad is, ostensibly, more humble this time around. This has to be his redemption project or he is finished.
 
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Aeiouy_sl

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popsicledeath_sl said:
The fact we've had to explain over and over even to some in this community that the 800k is to set up a studio, not build a game, is proof enough. No, they didn't promise a working demo, but instead of just letting the project be what it is: to start a fucking studio. They talked themselves into a corner by bullshitting us about the game this and the game that, and when pressed to produce something, anything from or about the actual game they kept seeming to reference, they had to scramble and make shit up.

So, no, they didn't intentionally, maliciously mislead anyone. Hell, I don't think they'd be capable. They basically just talked up shit they WANTED to do as if they had already done them, or even started, and then when called on their bullshit pretty much proved they didn't have shit. All they had to do was talk about the project, getting a studio set up, why they want to make the sort of game we want to make. Then, when people ask about the game, say 'We have a lot of great ideas and our philosophies will be such, but right now we need to get a studio set up so we can then focus all our efforts in the actual game design.'

Sure, plenty of people will wait and see how the game shapes up, but I don't think they'd have any problems at all funding the project if it was just not confusing as fuck. Half the people backing right now don't seem to know what they're backing for sure, and that's a problem. And most of the concerns about money and plans and intentions had to be asked, repeatedly, before we finally got answers that are now buried in QA videos and FAQs that are mostly about a game they're basically just making up as they go.

So, no, it's not maliciously misleading. It's just general incompetence.
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They have done a ton of stuff wrong but I don't think they were ever trying to mislead people.

Also I am not terribly big on dwelling on the part when you have work ahead. They can certainly create a post mortem once the ks period is over but rehashing what they should have done before does not help them today.

I don't know what they said that they tried to make it sound like it was already done. Pretty early we knew they had weekly meetings and working out of a garage.

Going to get off this particular side topic for now as what they could have done in November is not relevant to what they need to do now.

Hopefully they release the revamped dark knight and their paths and the cleric paths of halfling healer and autoerotic asphyxiationeer.

They also talked about a combat doc as well. Which will be intersting to see. Everything they put up will have someone bitch about it, that is to be expected.

I will go back to my earlier post though. Since you don't pay anything unless it gets funded and until the funding date, there is zero risk to have a pledge in. If anyone THINKS it still has the potential to end up being something they may end up wanting to support in thirty days, pledging now is important. The more pledges they get the better prospects it has and the more likely people on the fence will contribute. If one absolutely knows they will not want to support it or play it then don't donate. Unlike how dummy booze cube thinks, you are not giving them any more by donating right now. If you think you might still be interested out your pledge up to help get others involved. Like I said zero risk.
 
Zefah

Zefah

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a_skeleton_03_sl said:
Nobody has ever done it in an MMO and they put no kind of design document out there, no kind of combat information, no concept art, nothing out but it is "on me" for not easily imagining this retarded idea. Got it shill.
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Even without any details, you really can't imagine a two shield situation? I don't think it should be that hard. Obviously, it could be anything, but it seems natural to assume it that it will allow for more defensive capabilities while sacrificing damage output.
 
Gaige

Gaige

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Zefah_sl said:
Either way, I'm not interested in letting the disaster of Sigil affect my willingness to give Brad one last chance, especially with a smaller-scale and more focused project. Rather than coming at the project from a position of arrogance and feeling like he's untouchable, Brad is, ostensibly, more humble this time around. This has to be his redemption project or he is finished.
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So why is the Kickstarter portrayed as one for a game when it's actually to fund a studio so they can eventually make a game? If Brad can't even be honest about that how can anyone trust him at all, especially since he is asking everyone else to pay for it.
 
Convo

Convo

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Bertox_sl said:
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Yea, he was definitely selling some crazy shit back then. Genuine question.. how much of that stuff do you think had to do with his addiction issues? I'm not trying to make light of that situation b/c the behavior was down right wrong but personally speaking, I've had some very close people to me turn into different people based on drug addiction. Again, not excusing what he did, but looking at it from a distance, and using my own personal experience with addicts, who lied, cheated and stole after being really good people prior to those demons.. Just curious what your thoughts are? It's something I've thought about but was never close enough to the situation to really rule a verdict on. I was really reluctant to bring this part of it up as I don't want people to think I'm making excuses for him or what happen, I'm not. Shit was wrong. Just asking..

Also, if you look at his recent QnAPantheon: Rise of the Fallen | Exclusive MMORPG.com Q&A with Brad McQuaid | MMORPG

He's not really trying to over promise anything.. Not like he did in VG anyway.
 
popsicledeath

popsicledeath

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Zefah_sl said:
I bet he was. He has good reason to be pissed and to never trust Brad McQuaid again. His livelihood was jeopardized due to the poor management of the project.

With that said, he shouldn't expect people who weren't in his position to share the seething hatred. We all lost a lot less on Vanguard's failure, and some of us even had fun with what made it in the game (perhaps despite Brad McQuaid and thanks to developers like him).

Either way, I'm not interested in letting the disaster of Sigil affect my willingness to give Brad one last chance, especially with a smaller-scale and more focused project. Rather than coming at the project from a position of arrogance and feeling like he's untouchable, Brad is, ostensibly, more humble this time around. This has to be his redemption project or he is finished.
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Seething hatred? That dude's been pretty level headed in this thread considering what happened. I mean, you'd think Ut or the fucktards on mmorpg.com were the one fired in the parking lot if if you want to talk about seething hatred.

Amazingly, Brad does seem more humble, and is managing to make the same mistakes.
 
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Aeiouy_sl

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Flc_sl said:
It's amazing to me that some people are excited over this class update. I look at it and it's yet another sign of McQuaid and Friends' incompetence.

They are so very clearly making this up as they go along. Before yesterday they had no idea that they were going to have class specializations - then the Kickstarter comments were filled with thousands of tears from people who wanted to be warriors, and BAM - class reveal has both a warrior and a paladin specialization.

The problem with Pantheon has stopped being "there's a vision with no tangible evidence because it's so early" - as the developers have been claiming. The real problem is that there isn't any vision at all.
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That is simply not true as it relates to class specialization.

Brad talked about it before and the cleric class description has two different paths described in it.
 
Dandai

Dandai

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Tuco_sl said:
The only thing that playing a warrior allowed me to do that most other classes couldn't was read Dragonlance novels.
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When I was in airborne school in 2004 I was in an internet cafe, and I noticed this guy reading at his computer and I'm like "Wtf?" I poked my head around to see what he was playing and he was tanking SS temple on a fucking warrior. I couldn't help myself - I started cracking up and asked if I could take a picture. I think it got lost in time and hard drive failures, but I will forever remember that fucking warrior reading while tanking raid fights. If that's how you want any of Pantheon's classes to play, fuck you.
 
Zefah

Zefah

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Gaige_sl said:
So why is the Kickstarter portrayed as one for a game when it's actually to fund a studio so they can eventually make a game? If Brad can't even be honest about that how can anyone trust him at all, especially since he is asking everyone else to pay for it.
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I understand the complaint, but it doesn't bother me, because I've been using Kickstarter for a while.

Take the Double Fine Adventure, for example. The project that pretty much started the game funding movement on Kickstarter.

They wanted 400,000 to make an adventure game for which they really didn't have a plan. They wanted they money first to see if there was actually interest in such a project. Well, there certainly was! They ended up getting almost 3.4 million dollars from over 85,000 people. Then they started planning on working on the game.

In the end, the money proved to not be enough. They needed to seek additional funding and split the game they were making in half and sell it in order to fund the rest of the game.

People criticized them for having no proper plan for the game, and mismanaging the budget. Perhaps they are right, but the work they have produced has been damn fine in my opinion and I'm looking forward to the follow up. I think the same kind of thing could happen with this and that's why I'm willing to pitch in a few hundred to help make it happen.
 
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a_skeleton_03

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Zefah_sl said:
Even without any details, you really can't imagine a two shield situation? I don't think it should be that hard. Obviously, it could be anything, but it seems natural to assume it that it will allow for more defensive capabilities while sacrificing damage output.
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I can't imagine that being the default for a class. Like I said.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:
I think it is absolutely dumb. The amount of strength necessary to handle that in reality?

If it's just going to be a larger and flatter sword you are just looking for a skin on the sword that is a shield but it is still just a sword.

The combat design to make that interesting I can't even imagine. Come up with an idea and toss it out. Something that keeps both shields up at all times, isn't just a sword that is skinned like a shield because it is a digital game and not reality.
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Convo

Convo

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a_skeleton_03_sl said:
I can't imagine that being the default for a class. Like I said.
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I think where they went wrong, is making it sound like a huge part of the class, instead of it being a Disc like you said. That's something I'd rather hear down the line when some abilities are put out.
 
Quaid

Quaid

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Crusader reveal was a vast improvement. Good work. Still would love some concept art to go with it, but that's okay.
 
Zefah

Zefah

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Dandai_sl said:
When I was in airborne school in 2004 I was in an internet cafe, and I noticed this guy reading at his computer and I'm like "Wtf?" I poked my head around to see what he was playing and he was tanking SS temple on a fucking warrior. I couldn't help myself - I started cracking up and asked if I could take a picture. I think it got lost in time and hard drive failures, but I will forever remember that fucking warrior reading while tanking raid fights. If that's how you want any of Pantheon's classes to play, fuck you.
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Convenient that the picture is lost to time.

In my experience, that kind of semi-AFK while playing business was not the norm. Maybe during setup for an encounter, but during the raid? I'm doubtful.
 
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