Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO

Arctic_Slicer_sl said:

Lithose, groups still needed tanks and warriors could fill the role just fine.

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Oh come on, this was a lazy excuse then, it's a lazy excuse now. In a game where group slots are socially constrained due to discreet amounts of dungeon space (IE competitive). You better be able to fill a role in an adequatelycomparablefashion; Warriors were either behind or even with in terms of tanks by Velious compared to Paladins, SK's and Monks in a group setting. But at least with the first two they had a DPS advantage, while the knights brought utility; with monks it just made no sense. Monks did close to double the DPS and yet took significantly (Yes,significantly) less damage. The ONLY place someone who knew anything about the game should have wanted a warrior was as MT for a raid; due to how botched the armor vs atk formula was, and the fact that TTL was still higher on a warrior due to their slightly larger HP pool.

The ONLY reason you saw warriors in groups was because the genre was new and most of the game didn't understand basic mechanics due to how arcane the developers kept it--how the armor soft cap worked. Or how the skill ceilings related to avoidance. AA's were practically a balancing tool by the time they came out and for good reason, because the server population was catching on and certain classes were rightfully angry. That's why monks got hit with the proverbial hand of god mid luclin and then again in PoP.

This would never happen today. We are way too sophisticated in terms of parsing and number crunching and the social network sites communicate those imbalances way way faster than 12 years ago. A massive imbalance like in EQ would absolutely not stand today; and it shouldn't.

Luckily it's pretty easy to create classes that have roughly the same numerical equality; while still giving them a lot ofdifferentadvantages in how they affect the world. And those aspects of EQ that allowed for various effects to stack, and change the environment? That's what made EQ classes great. There was such a rich uniqueness in certain skills, things that were HARD to quantify with just numbers alone (Like the benefits of SoW or Mez or certain debuffs). Every class should be competitive in different environments, based on the rest of the group make up; Warriors shouldn't be tanks just because there were more groups than monks could fill. Rangers shouldn't be DPS because it's 3am and there were no Rogues, Monks, Mages, Bards, Shamans, Necros, Wizards on.

Long and short, you shouldn't want a Wizard over a Rogue because he does more damage. But because maybe he can evac, or give your healer mana, or move you across a huge ravine without having to take the long way around. Meanwhile a rogue might be able to disarm certain mobs with poison weapons, or remove traps or pick pocket the key and lead you to a shortcut. The game should be designed holistically to give each class numerous advantages that can't quite be quantified in how much damage they do, take or heal. That's what made EQ classes really magical--it wasn't what we could easily measure, it was the abilities that created very niche roles that were important in their own right.

When using chat to find groups, you also need to consider the range of the chat. If it is a global chat then it will move too fast, so we have to use regional chat, typically something like shout. That means moving to the dungeon before you find a group. To be honest that is the biggest difference between chat and a tool. A tool allows you to join a group and then move to it, where as using chat forces you to move to a location and then find a group for it.

Merlin_sl said:

Its a really tough call here but I have to agree with Dumar. As convenient and painless this is, when you start introducing tools into the game such as this LFG tool, what is happening here? Your reducing the direct communication involved in the process of finding a group. Its all packed nice and neat in a handy little tool and everyone is just "whispering" to each other behind the scenes. What is this doing? It is eliminating the need to use the OOC, SHOUT, etc.. channels. I think of it like the current guild halls. Yes, its very convenient and handy to have portals, healing, vendors, guild banks, and all crafting vendors and supplies right there at your fingertips, but this has created a very closed community where the streets, towns, and cities are all graveyards. They look like your local city on Christmas morning. EMPTY. Meanwhile everyone is hiding out in guild halls porting directly to their destination (via guild flags) in to their own instance where they don't have to see or communicate with anyone outside the guild, then when done raiding, they port right back to the guild hall.
This kind of tool while handy, seems to me to be the first step in having convenience take the place of communication. I wouldn't be opposed per-say, but imagining everyone just sending direct tells to each other then getting on vent just seems to me to be the opposite of where we are trying to go here. Its closing off the community rather than opening it up.

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The only direct communication you are losing is the spam lvl 60 wiz LFG. After that everything is taken to tells/invite anyway. I think you have a very glorified view of what the LFG channel was in EQ. It was a spam channel where people typed the same thing every minute. There wasn't any communication going on there, at least not where it concerned joining groups.

popsicledeath_sl said:

But how do you enable feasible, short-session grouping if a world has to be large enough and time consuming enough to make regional markets work? Hell, if they want that, having ports at all is kinda bullshit, no matter how randomly dangerous they make it sound.

In short, the regional market system is the first thing that gets scrapped because it's at odds with too many other aspects of the game.

And are we even sure they want a huge world? I swear I've read several things that said the world will be pretty small and focused, at least to start.

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Answering the second question first: I'm not sure, but as of the boogie interview Brad sounded like he wants regional market where investing substantial travel time to ferry goods can give you a profit - that alone says big world. Maybe someone can find out more.

For the first question: You have to tell the player that they do not have access to the whole game world at any given time. They have to re-learn that, because every game of the last decade DID give the whole world at their fingertips 24/7. If you can only commit to a short session when you log in you either solo/duo/trio at whatever is nearby or seek out the close dungeon to group (lets call it Straholme because you were in the plaguelands). Since the world doesnt allow to travel to Feralas quickly, you spend your short play session in the plaguelands and do not join the group for Dire Maul - because you arent there nor do you have the time to travel there. I see nothing wrong with such a situation - I know I just have an hour until I have to log off, so I do some crafting, travel to a more convenient location for my next session or solo/duo in the area I'm at. I've done so plenty of times in past games. Those of you that see this as a problem, is it really so fucking bad? Or are you just used to it being different?

Again as a reminder, that's assuming they want to make a big world, and can deliver a big world. If they dont want to or cant make it big enough this is a moot point. That's not for me to judge right now because they probably dont even know themselves.

Merlin_sl said:

Its a really tough call here but I have to agree with Dumar. As convenient and painless this is, when you start introducing tools into the game such as this LFG tool, what is happening here? Your reducing the direct communication involved in the process of finding a group..

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Please just stop. You're reducing "Class XXX LFG for YYY" over and over in a chat channel, that's it. You guys act like its stopping all chat in every channel. And since when is "telling/whispering" not communication, socialization or building a community?

This is why we can't have nice things, you have people wanting to keep something as stupid as LFG spam because they think it adds to "community" and instead of choices, IE you can spam or use a simple tool that has no negative effects, they just want to force the worst option on everyone.

Flank_sl said:

When using chat to find groups, you also need to consider the range of the chat. If it is a global chat then it will move too fast, so we have to use regional chat, typically something like shout. That means moving to the dungeon before you find a group. To be honest that is the biggest difference between chat and a tool. A tool allows you to join a group and then move to it, where as using chat forces you to move to a location and then find a group for it.

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You know that you could set up the LFG tool the same way right? By regions. Also... this game isn't going to have WoW levels of subscribers. It's not going to have to be regional chat. The level of disillusion with a simple LFG tool just because of WoW's one implementation (in its current state) is remarkable. Nobody is asking for the do no work, instant port, instant group, no communication tool that WoW offers.

Boozecube_sl said:

Why stop there ordering the game via digital download also reduces the interaction with other people. The game should only be sold in stores and you need to interact with best_buy_cashier_01 to get your copy.

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Too easy. Have to caravan your way to HQ and defeat Brad in order to obtain your physical copy. Also, you have to be wearing gear appropriate of the class you wish to play.

Cinge_sl said:

Please just stop. You're reducing "Class XXX LFG for YYY" over and over in a chat channel, that's it. You guys act like its stopping all chat in every channel. And since when is "telling/whispering" not communication, socialization or building a community?

This is why we can't have nice things, you have people wanting to keep something as stupid as LFG spam because they think it adds to "community" and instead of choices, IE you can spam or use a simple tool that has no negative effects, they just want to force the worst option on everyone.

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Your looking at using tunnel vision. I was quite specific about it being a catalyst for more tools that make gameplay easier and more streamlined. It starts with a LFG tool here, then helpful map markers you can use to pinpoint locations, then easy to find quest NPC's, and so on and so on. Pretty soon its just like EQ2 or WOW.

Merlin_sl said:

Your looking at using tunnel vision. I was quite specific about it being a catalyst for more tools that make gameplay easier and more streamlined. It starts with a LFG tool here, then helpful map markers you can use to pinpoint locations, then easy to find quest NPC's, and so on and so on. Pretty soon its just like EQ2 or WOW.

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Projection is a strong suit of yours isn't it? You guys are being ridiculous with this shit. Your only argument is "Well this isn't bad but IT'S GOING TO BE THE BEGINNING OF THE END". As if a simple LFG tool is pandora's box and it will catalyze the downfall of your ideal game. Can you be any more melodramatic?

Are you a warlock irl? Such clairvoyance.

I don't understand the people in this thread who are constantly telling us how we need to institute all these newer tools and mechanics that current games have and how they streamline gameplay and how great they are when every other company who is using these same tools and mechanics is a fucking dismal failure. Even WOW is starting to hemorrhage subscriptions. Yet a select few here (Khane is the worst offender) spam post after post about how ineffective and outdated the Everquest model was and how we need to stop looking back at the past and move forward. Where is forward? GW2? EQN? Warhammer? You mean like those? Were here because we don't like the handholding and game on rails that MMO's have become. Mistakes or not, Everquest worked. So I feel totally comfortable pointing back and going, "YEA, more of THAT please".

Just wow Merlin. I want to play this game, I would like to see it made, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't mind a simple LFG tool instead of spamming LFG in some random chat channel. You act like such a simple tool(and people have given examples) means its going to be WoWs group finder and will lead to making it just like that game. Talk about paranoia and defensive.

Merlin_sl said:

I don't understand the people in this thread who are constantly telling us how we need to institute all these newer tools and mechanics that current games have and how they streamline gameplay and how great they are when every other company who is using these same tools and mechanics is a fucking dismal failure. Even WOW is starting to hemorrhage subscriptions. Yet a select few here (Khane is the worst offender) spam post after post about how ineffective and outdated the Everquest model was and how we need to stop looking back at the past and move forward. Where is forward? GW2? EQN? Warhammer? You mean like those? Were here because we don't like the handholding and game on rails that MMO's have become. Mistakes or not, Everquest worked. So I feel totally comfortable pointing back and going, "YEA, more of THAT please".

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I don't spam this thread with anything. And it's clear you don't actually read the words in my posts. You latch onto and project your own opinion onto what I'm actually saying without objectively digesting the content. I am not championing anything in here. I come and go and offer an opinion on certain things but I have never even once pretended that everything in EQ is shit and outdated. I've defended many of its mechanics and even spelled out which ones I would like to see return because I feel they've been lost in the sea of "customer satisfaction". You're way off base here Merlin.

You and your ilk don't even realize you are your own worst enemy. You are the vegan hipsters of the MMO community. Nobody but the people in your own small clique respect anything you have to say because you immediately dismiss anything that isn't EQ. You can't see past your own nose and don't understand that developers, when they come here looking for suggestions, will dismiss you because of your overblown dramatization of what creates "immersion". You need perspective. Choose your battles instead of fighting everything for the sake of argument.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

They aren't dismal failures because of those tools. They are failures on a deeper level and those tools ALMOST save them half the time.

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This is so simple, really it is. The reason these games fail is because they institute game mechanics that encourage players to speed through the content on the easiest path possible and when you hit the end in a couple months, there is no other reason to continue to play. Your not invested in your character, your friends, the game, the lore, nothing. Because its all fast food. Race through drive through, grab your burger, chow it down at lightening speed and then what? Roll back through drive through? Why? You've already had the Big Mac. These games are not fostering any sort of community or commitment. Your invested in nothing so leaving is easy. The games give players no reason to play beyond the initial 2-5 months. You've already maxed your level, you already have great gear, you really didn't talk to many people so your not leaving behind friends. You can now do in 2-6 months what took the average player in Everquest a year. People in EQ were invested in their characters, the lore, the dungeons, they made tons of friends. There was a reason to continue playing and logging on even when they were not able to play that evening or they were waiting for a raid etc....Christ even players who had retired would log back on just to chat with their guildmates. Find that outside of Everquest or WOW. Good luck.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

The people that bring that kind of thing up are the people that were shitty players and/or had no friends. They nostalgically look back and thought the game was 'hardcore' because they had to try so hard to make a group. The rest of us were having no issues.

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Actually this isn't true. And it's clear from Merlin's posts about his "domination" of the progression server with ROI that he didn't have to deal with the nonsense and failures of EQ because he had the time to spend being elite. He wants nothing more than to cause pain and suffering to everyone who doesn't play the game as much as he does. He's about as selfish as they come in terms of player satisfaction and enjoyment. He wants to be an internet jock.

a_skeleton_03_sl said:

I was a cleric in EQ and I had a waiting list of groups at all times. Druids and Wizards grabbing me from remote places all over the world to bring me to a dungeon. The most time I would spend is about 5 minutes running. I spent more time in queues in WoW than I spent looking for a group in EQ.

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So you didn't even need the LFG tool. (also note you were a cleric). Imagine that. A cleric who didn't have a problem finding groups? That can't be!!! SHOCKING!@