Pan'Theon: Rise' of th'e Fal'Len - #1 Thread in MMO
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i think, at the very least, they should have put together a video to show something of the game. if they have indeed been working on it for several months, they could have at least gotten a 2 minute vid of the game together to put it on the KS page. i think that much alone could have gotten pantheon over a million dollars. i don't think they even had any concept art when the KS page first launched. that's bad.
Using games like Darkfall and Vanguard to reject the notion that "hardcore" MMOs could ever succeed is just ridiculous. Darkfall was an amateur hackjob and was just plain boring. Vanguard was rife with bugs and had a host of other issues, not to mention that it was released during WoW's peak. If Blizzard ever took on a project like Pantheon, you could be sure that everyone would eat that shit up.
Kirun
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I'll turn it around on you. Name me a niche, "hardcore" game that was released, whichwasn'ta buggy, unfinished mess. Because let's face it, even Everquest was a buggy, unfinished mess. The vast majority of what made that game fun, was entirely the result of bugs/unintended workarounds that the devs let fly. People justthinkthat it was a constant haven of fun, because nostalgia is a powerful drug. Everquest worked so well for two very large reasons: lack of competition and the fact that we didn't know any better. The latter is the biggest contributor to its success, but was possible due to the former.
Now, pretend you're an investor, being pitched the idea of "Everquest, done right!". Are you going to invest in that project? As soon as you're pitched the idea, you'd laugh them out of your office. These "hardcore" MMOs don't get made not because there isn't a market for difficulty(look no further than Darksouls), they don't get made because nobody can pinpoint what makes something that is "hardcore" successful in the MMO genre. Like I said earlier, the vast majority of EQ's success was the result of a lack of knowledge, unintended workarounds, and lack of competition. The nostalgic among you believe that it was due to downtime, forced grouping, slower leveling curves, and any other myriad of horrible mechanics. All of which we've seen tried in other games and seen that they either don't work, or can't be recreated in a bug-free/polished manner.
I don't believe that you're going to get innovation by calling back to mechanics that are 15+ years old. Once the automobile was here, people didn't ask for Ford to then go back and try to recreate a faster horse.
I just want to see what happens now. Does the team crawl under a rock (which is appears they have already done) or do they take the asswhopping, learn from it and double down? Are they willing to work full time jobs and in the offtime continue working on the game? They should be working nights, weekends, and holidays to make this happen. Come back in a year and blow us away.
BilboFaggins
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But with anything, its also good to go back and take a look at the basics and see where you strayed away from them over time and now caused stagnation.
In fact ford didn't change the foundation, the car and wheel were already there. His innovation was in the implementation. Not in changing the core of the automobile that already worked.
Eve Online
This is my issue with PvP games since EQ. Developers manufacture PvP objectives and rewards simply to have a "PvP game." That is, they want players to get together and kill each other. I get it, but that is such a small part of PvP that is almost doesn't even count. Perfect example is GW2, WvWvW. It was a manufactured experience from the outset. EQ's PvP was "real" in that the primary objective was never to fight just for fighting sake. The primary objective was always control of something. Control of the Frenzied Room (FBSS), Control of Nagafen, Control of Vox. Even if you were not on a Zek server, you played a PvP game. Ask the second most powerful guild on any server how much PvP it was.
On Rallos Zek (Sabbot) and later Sullon Zek (Neutral Team), we never just grouped up to play capture the flag, or collect points that declared us the "winner". We wanted to raid. And we would make sure that we snuck around, raided at 4:00am, found out Speedd Hax Taco Bell schedule and raided around it, so we could achieve objectives. That is the kind of PvP game that I want (albeit less hardcore). PvP should be a means to an end, not "the game."
Every PvP game you mention, and every game that was created (Ive played them all), the PvP was there to PvP. It always feels manufactured to me. I feel EQ was the best PvP game ever created, even on non-PvP servers, because controlling objectives, PvP "rewards", and power struggles were not some points on the screen. It was tacidly given by just playing the game. You fought to achieve the goals in the game, not just to fight.
Edit to Added: In my mind, if you want to make a great PvP game. Make a game that great for PvP (limited resources, valuable prizes, etc.) without being able to attack each other. Make it so that PvP is almost entirely about controlling objectives through strategic play and mobilization. Once all that is done and you have a fun game. Turn on killing each other. You will have a PvP game that is much better than any of the stuff being produced as a "PvP game" right now.
This for me also.
The last thing I want are "PVP mechanics" , make a fun PVE world , turn the PVP switch on , and back the hell away and let us start the bloodshed inside the PVE environment.
Big Flex
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This. The most pvp balance I'd ever want would be a "um, you do 50% of the damage in pvp that you'd do in pve, across the board, go get em, tiger."
I think this is what is throwing salt into the wound for me. Brad has effectively abandoned the KS campaign ,but instead of facing the music and admitting the shit isn't going to fund due to their KS fuck-ups , he's staying away from it and letting it wither.
Man the fuck up and show up on the KS site and admit the screwup over the KS campaign or put on a sunny face and keep acting like it will fund, either way, but hiding makes you look worse. He's posted I think once in a week now there (if that). The "he's doing interviews and looking for investors" shit doesn't excuse him completely abandoning the KS site.
I don't give a rat's ass if Ben is typing himself into the ground and Sal is kissing babies , they aren't the captain of this thing , the captain has already fled.
Big Flex
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Bro, you know as well as I that of the 10 guys on this team, only 3 actually do anything, those 3 guys are devoting all of their mental energy and time into their "post KS" strategy. They know this pig won't fund, and can't be bothered to pretend like it will. They will use the KS as a communication vehicle to announce their new, revamped website complete with one-stop-shop paypal donations and simplified (yet still somehow fucked up) donation tiers. They'll start pimping this angle when there is 7 days or so to go.
So stand by for a fucked up website, copy/paste spattered with all of the shit concept art and tabs for "Races", "Classes", and "The World of Terminus" and a massive donate button on the side. Might see one or two new pieces of art, my guess being generic female elf + waterworld fashion sensibilities.
The true believers who post more frequently on the KS comments sections than we post in this thread will be the first to donate, and you'll see them accumulate somewhere in the 1500-2k range fairly quickly, maybe as high as 20k, but that's the maximum. Then down the road Brad & Co. will announce a "partnership" with some wack ass gaming company no one has ever heard of, except a few who will lament what a shit "indie" publisher they are for reasons x, y, z. That is what is in the Flex crystal ball.
Kirun
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Oh, it is now, absolutely. EVE was in a horrible state when it was first released, however.
But, that then calls to the question: Why aren't the EQ die-hards flocking to it, instead of harping about how terribly "on-rails" MMOs are nowadays? EVE is exactly what they're asking for. Slower combat, slower game speed, longer "leveling", meaningful PvP, consequences to poor play, emergent gameplay, drama, etc. It couldn't possibly be because they don'tactuallywant those mechanics anymore, could it? It couldn't just be nostalgia, giving them a false sense of what they thought made EQ great?
After the way things went down at Sigil, this surprises you?
True , and I'll admit , I won't be able to not look at the new site and comments to see how much of a further train wreck it will be. You've got folks like Troy saying they likely won't donate to a private site , I cannot fathom what the crowd will be like who do after this KS debacle.
Actually , I can fathom it.
For me, its spaceships and the fact that it takes months, without any way to really speed it up, to be in any position to do anything fun. I always start playing with the best intentions, only to find that I end up leveling my spaceship in my hanger for 2 months until I can actually get involved in the community. Before the 2 months of waiting is up, I always find something better to do. I've done this literally a half dozen times with that game. I think its the style of progression they use, but I am not sure.
I think the only way to get involved in Eve at this point is to just by a character and dive in, but that isn't my thing.