Reigniting Patriotism- A practical guide to helping others.

Titan_Atlas

Deus Vult
<Banned>
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Seriously? Do you know anything about the 30's-40's? Sanctions and embargoes traditionally have been 'acts of wars' and we've been using them against other nations for decades. The Japanese were being strangled by the oil embargo in 1941, so in their minds the United States had already started the war, they just hadn't started shooting.

Why else would a nation bomb the shit out of a military base, then withdraw? That makes no sense from a strategic perspective as all you're doing is drawing another nation into a war, with no benefit.

Beyond the fact that they had been actively invading China and then French Indochina, so they weren't "defending" themselves. They attacked pearl harbor to draw attention away from there trips to Malaysia to get more oil. If they hadn't been aggressively trying to take over China, they wouldn't have ended up in a oil embargo. Act of War ffs we were trying to prevent their imperialism. I can't even understand you idiots, you bitch we extend our military around the world, using every single special care to preserve human life. Then you defend Japan? Are you fucking kidding me.
 

Woolygimp

Bronze Knight of the Realm
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using every single special care to preserve human life.

Preserving human life is not the job of the United States military. I honestly don't give a fuck how many civilians they bomb when the war is just, because those civilians are usually supporting your enemy. The job of the US Armed Forces is to defend the United States and its interests.

I'm also not defending Japan. I am saying that often war is brought about when both sides think they're fighting out of self-preservation, and that there are very few "black/white" wars in history. There ARE some, but in the modern day and age the only real reason to want territory is to control oil. The way taxes work, it doesn't make sense to conquer another nation - like Roman expansion.

They attacked pearl harbor to draw attention away from there trips to Malaysia to get more oil.

They attacked because they thought war was inevitable and that a pre-emptive strike would sap our will and capability of fighting.

Beyond the fact that they had been actively invading China and then French Indochina, so they weren't "defending" themselves. They attacked pearl harbor to draw attention away from there trips to Malaysia to get more oil. If they hadn't been aggressively trying to take over China, they wouldn't have ended up in a oil embargo. Act of War ffs we were trying to prevent their imperialism.

Did the Japanese start aggressively expanding through Asia because they just felt like it or were their motivations more complex?
Why did Japan invade Manchuria in 1931?

We weren't ANY less guilty of creating an unjust war in our 2003 Invasion of Iraq than the Japanese were in invading Asia. The Iraq War [2003] could be considered a black/white war. And guess what? We weren't on the side of what you could consider "good" because we didn't have a just reason for starting the war. The war was also created because in 2003 (before fracking became widespread) controlling the Iraqi oil fields was deemed important by our leaders.

Yeah, Iraq was probably one of the worst wars we've ever been involved in. Not because 5,500 Americans were killed, with countless others wounded. But because it was bullshit. We wanted something they had. There's a reason the vast majority of veterans from Iraq are pissed off and disenfranchised with our government. They really don't know what it was their brothers were being sacrificed for. They sure as fuck weren't defending freedom.
 
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Palum

what Suineg set it to
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Guys, take this WW2 derail to the Denmark's Shame: Dealing with a History of Nazi Sympathy thread.

Thanks
 
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radditsu

Silver Knight of the Realm
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Raised in the South, and was taught to be proud of it and its history. All I really see are massive amounts of industrial plants, high cancer rates, lowest quality of life in the United States, corruption you would not believe, and the religious fanatics who defend it all like it's a duty. Don't get me started on our history. There are people who are proud of it all because when they look at the same industrial plants, instead of seeing the negative characteristics, they see wealth, jobs, and progress. Life is very much how we view of the world, and it takes a lot of self inflection to really challenge the core principles that you were raised with.

People love to say that soldiers die defending freedom, but were they really defending the way of life of people like this?

One of the biggest misconceptions is that the United States fights humanitarian wars. We don't. We love to say that we do, but we don't, no nation does. They fight them out of self interest, and then attach selfless reasons like humanitarianism to make them more tolerable... WW2 wasn't fought to save Jews, it was fought on economic grounds. If Japan had won WW2, they'd have made a big deal about the internment camps and said they were fighting it out of a sense of duty to protect Japanese people around the globe.

The only way to really avoid conflict in an era which one war could mean not only the end of our way of life, but life itself, is to really challenge the notion of these black and white wars, and take a step back to try to understand why both nations are willing to send so many people off to die.


Our reach is so far that every war we fight is a combination of self interests and humanitarianism. However, what really should be done is tell people the actual realistic scope of these wars. The British were realist in their colonialism. They knew if they came and took over a middle eastern territory that the occupation would be a 60 year minimum. This is much easier to do with a constitutional monarchy or just a plain ole monarchy, not in our system where everything has to be immediate. Iraq is a 60 year occupation if we wanted to do it right. We needed to have a generation of people living and working with Iraq. That is the only way these humanitarian and economic wars actually work. However they can't TELL the American people that this is what needs to happen. However we pulled out because of an executive mandate. Real wars of "change" last decades, and inevitably are a net negative in monetary value.
 
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Titan_Atlas

Deus Vult
<Banned>
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Our reach is so far that every war we fight is a combination of self interests and humanitarianism. However, what really should be done is tell people the actual realistic scope of these wars. The British were realist in their colonialism. They knew if they came and took over a middle eastern territory that the occupation would be a 60 year minimum. This is much easier to do with a constitutional monarchy or just a plain ole monarchy, not in our system where everything has to be immediate. Iraq is a 60 year occupation if we wanted to do it right. We needed to have a generation of people living and working with Iraq. That is the only way these humanitarian and economic wars actually work. However they can't TELL the American people that this is what needs to happen. However we pulled out because of an executive mandate. Real wars of "change" last decades, and inevitably are a net negative in monetary value.

This. I have no problem with our self interest. Especially the way we practice it, doing the best we can within the circumstances, for the people of the country. The spread of Western cultural values is the absolute way to make the world a better place. I do wish we would spend more of our time working on infrastructure and problems at home before we jaunt off. But I understand that resources are needed for our countries prosperity.
 

Titan_Atlas

Deus Vult
<Banned>
7,883
19,909
Preserving human life is not the job of the United States military. I honestly don't give a fuck how many civilians they bomb when the war is just, because those civilians are usually supporting your enemy. The job of the US Armed Forces is to defend the United States and its interests.

I'm also not defending Japan. I am saying that often war is brought about when both sides think they're fighting out of self-preservation, and that there are very few "black/white" wars in history. There ARE some, but in the modern day and age the only real reason to want territory is to control oil. The way taxes work, it doesn't make sense to conquer another nation - like Roman expansion.



They attacked because they thought war was inevitable and that a pre-emptive strike would sap our will and capability of fighting.



Did the Japanese start aggressively expanding through Asia because they just felt like it or were their motivations more complex?
Why did Japan invade Manchuria in 1931?

We weren't ANY less guilty of creating an unjust war in our 2003 Invasion of Iraq than the Japanese were in invading Asia. The Iraq War [2003] could be considered a black/white war. And guess what? We weren't on the side of what you could consider "good" because we didn't have a just reason for starting the war. The war was also created because in 2003 (before fracking became widespread) controlling the Iraqi oil fields was deemed important by our leaders.

Yeah, Iraq was probably one of the worst wars we've ever been involved in. Not because 5,500 Americans were killed, with countless others wounded. But because it was bullshit. We wanted something they had. There's a reason the vast majority of veterans from Iraq are pissed off and disenfranchised with our government. They really don't know what it was their brothers were being sacrificed for. They sure as fuck weren't defending freedom.

We are always defending freedom. Because those that don't care about freedom, Marxists, Authoritarians, Oligarchs, Jihadists, are always spreading their power and ideas throughout the world. If we are not spreading western culture then we are losing ground and when all the ground is lost, we are surrounded, and it is too late.

The American people have lost their way in the last 50 years. We have forgotten in our security, what it means to struggle, to fight for philosophy, for ideals, for our lives. We will know it again soon, if we don't regain our Patriotism.
 
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Big Flex

Fitness Fascist
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