Salary Negotiation
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I guess I"m just used to it. She has the same personality as a lot of people in IT -- they know (either rightly or wrongly) that they"re right, and they"re extremely relentless in showing you that. It"s a great personality for solving problems, but it"s not exactly the best thing ever when it comes to discussion or debate.
The best way to go is redirect the righteous knowledge at the MBAs running tech companies who can"t even check their own email and make short term decisions because they will fail up before the shit comes back to roost.
Salary information should be public IMO, that way BS could get called out. The guy in the cube next to me is about 15 years older than me, but he isn"t near as good. I was better at 2 months on the job than he has been at 9 months. I imagine he does make more money than me, but if I knew for sure i"d shit a brick.
It isnt justifiable to pay someone more when it can be a proven fact that they produce less.
It isnt justifiable to pay someone more when it can be a proven fact that they produce less.
There is a big difference between you and that guy: the chance to get a promotion. As much as we like to bitch about it, people talk and boss/management will know if you"re actually good and have potential. Unless, of course, you work for assholes.
I"ve got a major problem with never being satisfied with where I am, its hard in tech where promotions are relatively limited unless you want to give up being technical. That and I am in a non technical friendly market with no desire to move sigh. I think I need to start my own company or something, getting sick of working for someone else. Issue is I am a "problem solver" more than an idea man.
No, I don"t work for assholes, but I don"t want to stick around for 2-3 years just for a "chance" at getting a 10-15k raise. But hey it"s a free country, and I continue to keep my eyes out for better positions. That"s the price companies pay I guess for not paying their employees what they"re worth, or giving others that are less deserving more - essentially a premium for having grey hair.Thief said:
On an unrelated note, a friend of mine used to work for an undisclosed IT company and was underpaid as well. He went to his boss and told them that if he didn"t get a 10k raise he was going to start looking for other employment. The company said no, so my friend started looking. He found a better job and when he gave them his 2 weeks notice they offered him the 10k he wanted. He didn"t take it and left.
I"m pretty much in the same arena (other than the non tech friendly area). I have no desire to be management at any time in my career. Technical lead sure, writing reviews and hiring people? fuck that. I already loathe generating the farcical info for my own annual reviews, I couldn"t imagine sitting through other people"s with a straight face.CnCGOD said:
I don"t have the desire to start my own company right now, money is pretty good at my level in the system admin / system integration world. The extra coin I"d gain by moving up to management wouldn"t be worth the extra bullshit.
Yea I"m already a Lead so its at the point I don"t have much room to grow technically. I"m 31 so I have a few years but you don"t wanna be a 40yr old engineer from everything I"ve seen and heard.
It"s really a tragedy that the reward for being a good engineer most places is to never be allowed to do engineering again and instead push paper full time. Fuck that. You guys could follow my example and move to Montana and raise cows.
Why is that?CnCGOD said:
I"m not going to talk salary specifics on the internet, but I make a lot more money that I need or spend. Not that I live the life of a carefree rock star but there is a lot more to life than grinding away for a paycheck. Technical work is actually enjoyable to me, managerial tasks are drudgery. I"d rather eek some enjoyment out of work instead of spending my day unhappy with meaningless tasks.
Because if for some reason you lose your job, it becomes really hard to find one. Its an ageist industry, pretty commonly accepted to be so... sure someone will want you but it"ll be a LOT harder. How many 40+ software engineers do you see around?
For me it really comes down to the fact there are people higher up with no clue about much of anything that make more on the back of your labor as an engineer. I definitely wouldn"t say I grind for that paycheck, Ive earned the right where I am now to keep banker like hours (~32-35 a week) with total flexibility because I always deliver with quality and on time.
Ive dealt with mid-high level exces and am sickened by how clueless they are about the business they run while making 2x what a senior/lead engineer makes. I agree that I already make more than enough to live comfortably (I have a savings rate of 40% despite owning my own home and driving an expensive car)... I apparently am unable to ever be satisfied as long as someone dumber is making more. Ego thing? Personality thing? (INTJ style). I don"t really know why tbh.
For me it really comes down to the fact there are people higher up with no clue about much of anything that make more on the back of your labor as an engineer. I definitely wouldn"t say I grind for that paycheck, Ive earned the right where I am now to keep banker like hours (~32-35 a week) with total flexibility because I always deliver with quality and on time.
Ive dealt with mid-high level exces and am sickened by how clueless they are about the business they run while making 2x what a senior/lead engineer makes. I agree that I already make more than enough to live comfortably (I have a savings rate of 40% despite owning my own home and driving an expensive car)... I apparently am unable to ever be satisfied as long as someone dumber is making more. Ego thing? Personality thing? (INTJ style). I don"t really know why tbh.
Set your sites on Director of Development and QA. Then you are in management, but still work in the medium you like, and hopefully hire skilled people you enjoy managing.
From what I have seen Directors are rarely former engineers at my current company. Never seen manager/director level jobs on the market here as people promote from within for them... hell even Lead jobs are rare around here. I see metric fucktons of Sr jobs though.
I"m in a REALLY tough position right now.
I currently work for a company that has great benefits. I have health insurance, profit sharing (just contributed 6k to my Vanguard account this year, with nothing from me), and next year I can exercise my 100 share stock option that at this point, would throw 10k in my bank account.
The problem is, I am a PART TIME employee who works 40 hours (though 3 years ago this dropped down to 20, then to 35.. now to 40 again), and have been for 8 years. When I was hired into this company I was 19, and I was extremely low balled on the pay scale. As I grew older I learned about this so called pay-scale, and realized I was way below what the hire-in rate was. I argued this with management for so long. I was continually told the pay scale means nothing. I finally received a tiny bump in pay, that still didn"t put me anywhere near where I was supposed to be.
Anyways, after 8 years, I"m finally making like 1.00$/hr more than what I should have been hired in at, and I don"t see this as fair.. Also with the amount of effort and time I"ve put into this company I think I deserve something more than being a part-time employee after 8 years. With the state of the economy they can afford to give me shit pay since I won"t be going anywhere though.
My friend got a job at a competitor recently. He called and asked if I still pissed where I"m at. So I went an interviewed. This company just started using the software program SAP. I"ve been using it for 8 years at my current company. My resume is perfect for this place. I"ve already been called at they want me pretty badly. He offered me some low ball, entry level number, yet higher than what I currently make by maybe about 1k. I said that just won"t work, because I have that stock option next year I can cash in for 10,000$, AND the 401k they have really pales in comparison to the profit sharing I currently receive. He said he sees what I"m saying and he"ll try to get something together for me after he speaks to higher-ups.
401k for other company: match contribution up to 1,200$
Profit Sharing at current company: 21% of your annual salary every year contributed by company, no personal contribution required.
The other benefits are relatively the same, except that I won"t be able to cash in that 10,000$ stock option.
What I want to do, and have before this job came along is e-mail upper management at my current company. I don"t want to lose what I have here, but I feel I deserve more than what I"m getting, and I have a lot of reasons why. I am not necessarily going above my manager"s head because we"ve had this discussion before, and she told me they weren"t hiring 50 times. I don"t know if she is lying to me, or if anything I say matters, but I don"t see them wanting to lose another employee who has 8 years of experience, right after somebody just retired.
I don"t know if I can use the other company I interviewed for as leverage, or if that"s even a good idea. Plus I don"t know at what point it would be worth leaving my current company for the other one. I was thinking maybe 8-10k more than I"m currently making, and he seems to be willing to deal, since he said he"d get back to me.
edit: the other company is also a tiny bit smaller, but MUCH less established than my current. There also seems to be room to move forward, but where I"m at that seems nonexistant unless you really know somebody or are in the "in crowd"
I currently work for a company that has great benefits. I have health insurance, profit sharing (just contributed 6k to my Vanguard account this year, with nothing from me), and next year I can exercise my 100 share stock option that at this point, would throw 10k in my bank account.
The problem is, I am a PART TIME employee who works 40 hours (though 3 years ago this dropped down to 20, then to 35.. now to 40 again), and have been for 8 years. When I was hired into this company I was 19, and I was extremely low balled on the pay scale. As I grew older I learned about this so called pay-scale, and realized I was way below what the hire-in rate was. I argued this with management for so long. I was continually told the pay scale means nothing. I finally received a tiny bump in pay, that still didn"t put me anywhere near where I was supposed to be.
Anyways, after 8 years, I"m finally making like 1.00$/hr more than what I should have been hired in at, and I don"t see this as fair.. Also with the amount of effort and time I"ve put into this company I think I deserve something more than being a part-time employee after 8 years. With the state of the economy they can afford to give me shit pay since I won"t be going anywhere though.
My friend got a job at a competitor recently. He called and asked if I still pissed where I"m at. So I went an interviewed. This company just started using the software program SAP. I"ve been using it for 8 years at my current company. My resume is perfect for this place. I"ve already been called at they want me pretty badly. He offered me some low ball, entry level number, yet higher than what I currently make by maybe about 1k. I said that just won"t work, because I have that stock option next year I can cash in for 10,000$, AND the 401k they have really pales in comparison to the profit sharing I currently receive. He said he sees what I"m saying and he"ll try to get something together for me after he speaks to higher-ups.
401k for other company: match contribution up to 1,200$
Profit Sharing at current company: 21% of your annual salary every year contributed by company, no personal contribution required.
The other benefits are relatively the same, except that I won"t be able to cash in that 10,000$ stock option.
What I want to do, and have before this job came along is e-mail upper management at my current company. I don"t want to lose what I have here, but I feel I deserve more than what I"m getting, and I have a lot of reasons why. I am not necessarily going above my manager"s head because we"ve had this discussion before, and she told me they weren"t hiring 50 times. I don"t know if she is lying to me, or if anything I say matters, but I don"t see them wanting to lose another employee who has 8 years of experience, right after somebody just retired.
I don"t know if I can use the other company I interviewed for as leverage, or if that"s even a good idea. Plus I don"t know at what point it would be worth leaving my current company for the other one. I was thinking maybe 8-10k more than I"m currently making, and he seems to be willing to deal, since he said he"d get back to me.
edit: the other company is also a tiny bit smaller, but MUCH less established than my current. There also seems to be room to move forward, but where I"m at that seems nonexistant unless you really know somebody or are in the "in crowd"