Shroud Of The Avatar - Shit Went Persistent

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Caliane

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Yep, great rant. I actually have (or had I should say) a lot of respect for RG because of my fanatical love of all things Ultima. I LOVED the entire series. Even that buggy piece of shit Ultima 9 was a incredible adventure, and a ton of fun after you patched it. I'll always be thankful for those memories, but seriously fuck this guy's ego. Knowing you are one of the pioneers of MMOs/RPGs in general is one thing. Trying to dick smack everyone with it is something else entirely and unacceptable behavior. Some humility goes a long way when you are trying to get money out of people.

The kickstarter stuff is the thing that upsets me the most. Millionaires should NOT be using kickstarter to fund their projects. If Richard said he would match whatever the fans raise + add a extra million or whatever on top of it then I wouldn't care. People with castles should not be asking the "common folk" for a hand out though. The whole thing smells like shit and taints kickstarter. I want kickstarter to succeed so bad, but if people like RG and Mark Jacobs plan to just abuse it at every turn then it likely won't.
I'm really starting to hope kickstarter is allowing these "big" name projects through now, as a means to gain awareness of kickstarter itself. and later will start enabling stronger restrictions on who can start one.
cause really, this is starting to become bullshit really fast.

People are really abusing it on multiple fronts.
One, as we see here^.

Or this. Some people might have seen me rail on this piece of shit in a few places.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...codak-volume-1
"webcomic" kickstarter. and I use that term loosely. 80pages of work in 10 years of production hardly defines as a comic. 3 months for one page. daily updates about how great he is.

Goes to kickstarter to get people to pay for production on a hard cover version of his webcomic. not NEW work. previously created work. Wanted 30k for about 5k worth of printing/mailing. Which ok... whatever.
Gets 400k, so far. And has to add stretch goals. Which brings up the first problem with kickstarter. people over funding shit that really doesn't need it. Instead of giving 10 webcomics 40k, this ONE retard has 400k.
He set stretch goals. originally he had his 800k goal as "I will update my comic bi-weekly for 1 year".
I shit you fucking not. Adding up the production costs of all previous tiers would result in 50-90k worth, being generous. Meaning, he was asking for 700k for 26 pages of his comic for 1 year. $27,000 per page, for 1 year.
that is fucking FRAUD. everyone flipped out, and he changed it.
700k is now every week for 1 year. which is STILL 12,000 a page.

I can be disappointed in fans for giving this piece a shit a dime. But this asshole himself, should be fucking ashamed.
Although clearly he has none after the charging for a Mobius tribute.
 

Young_sl

shitlord
45
0
Yes. Ultima Online is considered the father of the genre, but that really just comes down to release dates. EverQuest started development in 1996. UO wasn't released until 1997. Had UO of been scraped by Origin we would of still seen EverQuest in 1999. A bunch of us remember noows, but really this community exists as it does today thanks to EQ.
I meant, without UO there was no CoTD which would mean no FoH, which would mean no fohguild.org which would mean no rerolled.org... ?
 

LennyLenard_sl

shitlord
195
1
I'm really starting to hope kickstarter is allowing these "big" name projects through now, as a means to gain awareness of kickstarter itself. and later will start enabling stronger restrictions on who can start one.
cause really, this is starting to become bullshit really fast.

People are really abusing it on multiple fronts.
One, as we see here^.
I hope so, but I won't hold my breath. Kickstarter gets their 5% cut only on successfully funded projects. So it's in their best interest to keep as many projects rolling, especially those heavily reliant on good feelings (and thus a high chance of hitting the milestones), as long as there isn't fraud.

I suppose, in many ways, they've become a publisher, except they're playing entirely with other peoples money.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,969
16,984
700k is now every week for 1 year. which is STILL 12,000 a page.

I can be disappointed in fans for giving this piece a shit a dime. But this asshole himself, should be fucking ashamed.
Although clearly he has none after the charging for a Mobius tribute.
Penny Arcade probably makes 5x that per post and they post a LOT. Are you be mad at them?

Merely throwing around the revenue numbers and getting angry at it, while ignoring traffic + other value added metrics is a bit contrite. Also, his comic is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Your rant makes it sound like you're angry that he's making good money off a comic... Is that really worth being angry over?

Take your anger, multiply it by over 9000!, and throw it towards web-based software. Zero overhead + pure profit = one angry Caliane.

----

The companies you should be getting angry at are the ones that are using Kickstarter to move into a new space, aka tabletop > computer gaming like so:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...sy-sandbox-mmo.

Kickstarter only really works with tangible products. Computer games getting funding from individuals who have to wait years to see the product they bought isn't good business. Why? Because there's no one to hold the gaming company accountable. If Kickstarter launched some sort of shareholder forum where people could come together when a project doesn't turn out well and hold people responsible and even pursue litigation, well, then, I'd be more inclined to support such ventures.

But, then again, Kickstarter is a venue for INVESTORS. There's always risks involved. Ten years from now, Kickstarter will probably be a much different beast and everyone much the wiser.
 

Kubla Kas_sl

shitlord
200
0
I liked Ultima IV up until you finish the morality quiz at the beginning and get your class. Then game gets boring (read: too hard with farming for nightsbane or whatever and moon gates appearing at random places and with no internet to hold my hand, I fail at the game) and I quit playing and go back to Bard's Tale on my commodore 64.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,903
6,889
I'm really starting to hope kickstarter is allowing these "big" name projects through now, as a means to gain awareness of kickstarter itself. and later will start enabling stronger restrictions on who can start one.
cause really, this is starting to become bullshit really fast.

People are really abusing it on multiple fronts.
One, as we see here^.

Or this. Some people might have seen me rail on this piece of shit in a few places.
http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...codak-volume-1
"webcomic" kickstarter. and I use that term loosely. 80pages of work in 10 years of production hardly defines as a comic. 3 months for one page. daily updates about how great he is.

Goes to kickstarter to get people to pay for production on a hard cover version of his webcomic. not NEW work. previously created work. Wanted 30k for about 5k worth of printing/mailing. Which ok... whatever.
Gets 400k, so far. And has to add stretch goals. Which brings up the first problem with kickstarter. people over funding shit that really doesn't need it. Instead of giving 10 webcomics 40k, this ONE retard has 400k.
He set stretch goals. originally he had his 800k goal as "I will update my comic bi-weekly for 1 year".
I shit you fucking not. Adding up the production costs of all previous tiers would result in 50-90k worth, being generous. Meaning, he was asking for 700k for 26 pages of his comic for 1 year. $27,000 per page, for 1 year.
that is fucking FRAUD. everyone flipped out, and he changed it.
700k is now every week for 1 year. which is STILL 12,000 a page.

I can be disappointed in fans for giving this piece a shit a dime. But this asshole himself, should be fucking ashamed.
Although clearly he has none after the charging for a Mobius tribute.
I generally agree with you about kickstarter, but the webcomic you dis is actually pretty good imo. That's why people gave him so much money. The vast majority of webcomics are really, really, really bad. Yeah, he doesn't put out much content but the response he has received gives a lot of credence to the quality over quantity argument.

Besides, he didn't ask for 400k, just enough to print it in hardcover which is quite expensive. People love his work so they gave it to him, and tons more. And since it's their money, they can do what they want with it.
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,969
16,984
Kickstarter is not for investors, it's for consumers.
You're buying products that have never existed before in the "consumer" market. They're essentially a "first-to-the-market" product. Traditionally these products seek venture capitalists to see their products come to light. With the advent of Kickstarter, they're essentially allowing average people to take the place of the "VC". So, no, Kickstarter is not for consumers.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Response:
http://www.portalarium.com/images/do...%20Context.pdf

Words Taken Out of Context
Wow did I strike a nerve! In the midst of a much longer more contextual conversation, PC
Gamer noted "Wow, you just gave me my headline!" At that moment, I knew to brace for an out
of context backlash. Without the broader real time discussion, as often happens, much can be
made out of partial thoughts used as headlines of comments meant as quipping simplification of
complex issues, as was the recent case for me. The variations of headlines where I either
disparage others, or glorify myself are inaccurate representations of the intent of my full
commentary.
Still, I have received numerous comments of support and numerous complaints about my recent
words about the challenges of finding great game designers. But, please let me clarify! By no
means did I intend to disparage others who have led the many great games of each era in gaming
history. I was trying to say, and show why finding or growing NEW great game designers is
hard!
Behind the inaccurate inflammatory headlines extracted from a longer dialog, I really do see a
major challenge to our art form, specifically in the area of design. The design of a game is
simultaneously 1) the most valuable aspect when it comes to the potential of success of a game,
2) the hardest part of game development to improve over previous efforts because of
competition, and 3) the skill set with the least formal and informal training available to game
developers.
Let me examine the history of design from where I watched it unfold.
Once upon a time, only one person made a game. By necessity that person was the programmer,
artist and designer (as well as holding many other roles). I can honestly say that the first artist I
ever hired was FAR better than I ever was. I was, and could still be, a passable programmer.
Some programmers who my companies have hired have been better than me, some worse, as I
would expect. And there are designers whose work in many areas is far better than mine. But I
also think some of the work I have done as a designer remains a top contribution for its time.
However, while ALL artists in the industry are better than I ever was, and while I can easily hire
a programmer who is better than I ever was, it is far more difficult to hire a designer who is
clearly capable of leading a top 10 game. For any company, growth only comes when the
company finds another leader who can make a top 10 game. Origin only grew when we found
people like Chris Roberts and Warren Spector. Most other attempts at creating new game lines
failed when we gave the reigns to junior people looking to advance. I want emphasize that this
was not always the case, but it happened more times than not. As a business it's important to
understand why.
At Origin, after we successfully added art teams and programming teams, we realized we had
huge worlds to build that did not demand the same drawing skills as an artist. We also had NPC
scripting needs that did not demand a top programmer. Thus we invented the Technical Design
Assistant, often someone from QA (still a traditional source of designers) to build maps and
script NPCs. These people did this to GREAT success!But, as the industry evolved, we began to lean more heavily on new "designers" to develop the
actual plans for the game itself and to describe the game we planned to build. They were also
tasked with making design calls on how much of the computer's limited resources should be
spent on the competing fields of art, sound and interaction. This difficult trade-off is generally
best handled by someone who knows the difficulties of coding and art creation issues, and that is
more often someone who has programmed and drawn art than it is someone who has not.
Sadly for people who really are passionate about designing the next great game, "game design"
remains a hard skill to learn. A lot of indie developers right now who are "triple threats" of artist,
programmer and designer, will likely rise to the occasion. They will have a good understanding
of ALL the issues. Designers, who never coded and never drew art, have a far harder path ahead
of them. After all, we are making "computer games," and a deep knowledge of the computer is
mighty helpful.
Artists can take classes and create portfolios of their work and an employer knows they can do
the work. A programmer can take classes and produce code samples to prove the same. For
designers, there are now at least a few good schools like the Guildhall at SMU, that turn out
quality designers. Yet these quality designers remain a rare breed. Sadly, I really do think that
most people who get into design roles on a team have no more skills at design than the
programmers and artists. They may not be worse, but they rarely have better training than the
others to tackle the hardest job of all, determining what game is going to be built.
Perhaps my statement that has been quoted so often in recent days could have been presented in
a more eloquent fashion. But I stand by the point I was making, that game design is the hardest
profession in our business to understand and to learn.
And I certainly am not trying to put my own career on some sort of game design high ground.
While I have hit occasional home runs, I have made plenty of unforced errors. I was not
attempting to prop myself up with these comments, but rather lament my need.our industry's
need for proper training in the most important skill required to make a good game. I never had
any formal training either; I have just had more time to learn from my mistakes than most. If
what comes from all this is a frank discussion and lively debate on how to best address this issue,
then hopefully I've accomplished something.
Thanks for your time,
Richard "Lord British" Garriott
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,431
44,760
RE: Kickstarter. It's pretty clear that you're paying for something that doesn't exist yet. It's up to the person who is paying to vet the project properly and weigh whether it's worth it or not. I don't really have any issue with even Lord Douchebag doing it. If people want to fund that shit, more power to you. I'm saving my jimmies for when they(they, as in any Kickstarter company) actually fail to deliver on time or at all. Now that's when it will be worth getting rustled!
 

Tmac

Adventurer
<Aristocrat╭ರ_•́>
9,969
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RE: Kickstarter. It's pretty clear that you're paying for something that doesn't exist yet. It's up to the person who is paying to vet the project properly and weigh whether it's worth it or not. I don't really have any issue with even Lord Douchebag doing it. If people want to fund that shit, more power to you. I'm saving my jimmies for when they actually fail to deliver on time or at all. Now that's when it will be worth getting rustled!
True enough.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
15,319
11,611
Penny Arcade probably makes 5x that per post and they post a LOT. Are you be mad at them?

Merely throwing around the revenue numbers and getting angry at it, while ignoring traffic + other value added metrics is a bit contrite. Also, his comic is worth whatever people are willing to pay for it. Your rant makes it sound like you're angry that he's making good money off a comic... Is that really worth being angry over?

Take your anger, multiply it by over 9000!, and throw it towards web-based software. Zero overhead + pure profit = one angry Caliane.

----

The companies you should be getting angry at are the ones that are using Kickstarter to move into a new space, aka tabletop > computer gaming like so:http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/...sy-sandbox-mmo.

Kickstarter only really works with tangible products. Computer games getting funding from individuals who have to wait years to see the product they bought isn't good business. Why? Because there's no one to hold the gaming company accountable. If Kickstarter launched some sort of shareholder forum where people could come together when a project doesn't turn out well and hold people responsible and even pursue litigation, well, then, I'd be more inclined to support such ventures.

But, then again, Kickstarter is a venue for INVESTORS. There's always risks involved. Ten years from now, Kickstarter will probably be a much different beast and everyone much the wiser.
When PA started a crowd funded project, it washttp://www.childsplaycharity.org/. They didn't take those millions and say they will make 26 comics.
And advertising revenue is not that high. Any money PA makes they deserve, and they turn most of their profits right around into PAX, helping others such as strip search.

Possibly more comparable would be order of the sticks kickstarter. But considering he understands pacing, and regularly updated for YEARS. No, I have no real problem with him getting overfunded. Other then the flaw in kickstarter allowing that at all.


KS appears to have ZERO controls for overfunding. Ask for 30k, get 300k. thanks, ill give you what was promised, and spend 200k on a boat. This is pretty clearly a huge problem with it. Its a goldmine for scams. Like that webcomic.
 

Soygen

The Dirty Dozen For the Price of One
<Nazi Janitors>
28,431
44,760
KS appears to have ZERO controls for overfunding. Ask for 30k, get 300k. thanks, ill give you what was promised, and spend 200k on a boat. This is pretty clearly a huge problem with it. Its a goldmine for scams.
While scams are one thing that I agree might be a problem, the amount needed to fund is often times the minimum to get something produced, printed, etc. If it's overfunded, that just means they have more demand than the minimum. I don't really understand what your beef is. Who cares if a lot of people want something you don't think is worth it?
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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11,611
I generally agree with you about kickstarter, but the webcomic you dis is actually pretty good imo. That's why people gave him so much money. The vast majority of webcomics are really, really, really bad. Yeah, he doesn't put out much content but the response he has received gives a lot of credence to the quality over quantity argument.

Besides, he didn't ask for 400k, just enough to print it in hardcover which is quite expensive. People love his work so they gave it to him, and tons more. And since it's their money, they can do what they want with it.
Would be nice to see come quality in that case.
But really just affirms, its better to talk a good game then actually have one.

Its very disappointing, his fans gave him 400k for him to keep not working.
That is his only job. he quit his "real" job something like 2 years ago.

A page of the caliber he does should take about 3 days tops(his complete lack of understanding of panel and page construction leads him to make 2-3pages, into 1, aka his 1 is really 2 to 3 pages). He should be doing a good 90 pages a year, considering time for paperwork, marketing, and research. Ask yourself, what the fuck hes doing with his time, when he only creates 1 page every 3 months.

It is very disappointing anyone would support this hack.
 

Caliane

Avatar of War Slayer
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11,611
While scams are one thing that I agree might be a problem, the amount needed to fund is often times the minimum to get something produced, printed, etc. If it's overfunded, that just means they have more demand than the minimum. I don't really understand what your beef is. Who cares if a lot of people want something you don't think is worth it?
yeah, the production does increase with the numbers of course. But its not proportionate.

Presumably, there needs to be caps, or scales.
Perhaps profits need to be public?

the complete lack of accountability in kickstarter is disturbing. I think there is going to be a spectacular case of fraud in it sooner then later. Then the question will be, will it shake peoples faith in using it at all?