Snowden (2016)

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Shmoopy

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Here's Oliver Stone on O'Reilly Factor. Weird that fairly right-wing (limited government) guys like O'Reilly are totally cool with mass surveillance, but Stone (an admittedly left wing guy) is not. He even kinda throws Obama under the bus in the movie.

Anyway, its a pretty interesting interview.

 
Zapatta

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Shmoopy said:
Here's Oliver Stone on O'Reilly Factor. Weird that fairly right-wing (limited government) guys like O'Reilly are totally cool with mass surveillance, but Stone (an admittedly left wing guy) is not.
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People like O'Reilly like to pretend that the government is only climbing up the ass of Muslims. He'd shit himself if he knew the NSA has the webcam footage of him beating his wife and getting blowjobs from male interns. He is an incredibly stupid man.
 
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wilkxus

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Both the movies are fun but this one is much too one sided. And this pardon Snowden crap floating around recently is patently ludicrous. There are two things to consider: the message and the messenger.

Message here is more important than the messenger. The message (specifically all documents he stole) did so much harm to the inteligence community its mind bogingly, jaw droppingly shocking !! Nation states were already aware of lots on their own, its their job, but its the others in between average job and a nation state that are more of a worry.

....and people want to PARDON him? I AGREE the conversation he started is of VITAL importance.... but he fooked up.

Yes Snowdens message is IMHO an important one but it was ALREADY GENERALLY ( without specific, operation proof) known to people with an interest. Snowden SHOULD have blown the whistle but differently, perhaps not 100% by the book but better than this . The ruskies are laughing all the way to the bank on this one, they did not even have to lift a finger ! And Snowdens naivete, ignorance and childish belief in the fine print of the constitution did dammage they could ever do on own. And he presented himself to the ruskies at their doorstep on a silver platter ! #@$% moron. He is certainly no hero as portrayed, just a tool with a bit of a clue.

Now, looking at his message (issues of privacy etc), morally and otherwise is a different matter alltogether heh.
The messenger however, he is just a techie admin tool, and not even very well read to boot.... FFS even a low rate crime/spy novel reader could plan a better more effective escape route than Snowden did. He had ALL the time in the world he wanted to plan ahead! And he got stuck in HK and Moscow lol.... WTF.

Sigh, anyone working for Govt should IMHO make much better $$ and have better quality standards to live up to in house rather than contracting out. No offense to those working in defense heh, just saying, INTERNAL staff, kept CLOSE, you will pay more, but ummmm its a worthwhile investment in security long term! A happier worker will be a safer worker.....and a disgruntled worker....yah....


One thing I am curious about is whether Snowden inadvertantly contributed to the finding, unmasking and outing of the = group and some of their actual tools and source code (very recently after DNC hacks). Probably not , as their work was discovered already by at least Kaspersky in 2010-2012, but you never know. Another potential nail in the coffin of the pardon Snowden campain.
 
Zapatta

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wilkxus said:
One thing I am curious about is whether Snowden inadvertantly contributed to the finding, unmasking and outing of the = group and some of their actual tools and source code (very recently after DNC hacks). Probably not , as their work was discovered already by at least Kaspersky in 2010-2012, but you never know. Another potential nail in the coffin of the pardon Snowden campain.
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I thought it was widely reported and verified that that fuck up was the NSAs. Their operator accidentally uploaded that file during an intrusion and didn't notice to wipe it on the way out. Can't see them admitting the fuck up if it was Snowden's / Russia's doing.
 
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kudos

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Zapatta said:
It's hard the have sympathy for the 'betrayal' of the massive, ever growing Orwellian surveillance machine / culture. that is shittimg all over everyone. How the people building and running it arent the ones labeled traitors is mind blowing. I can't think of anything more Un-American than the concept and execution of these programs.
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Except there are guards in place to block US agencies from doing surveillence on Americans. Do you think the Germans don't do it? They do it to their own people. So do the Brits. You don't hear anyone crying about them though, do you? The US is MUCH better about what they do and don't do when it comes to it's own citizens compared to other first world, less free countries.
 
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kudos said:
Except there are guards in place to block US agencies from doing surveillence on Americans.
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Which they ignore. They get outted breaking those laws all the time and fuck all happens.
 
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Zapatta

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Yeah the people heading up agencies who OK things like Trap Wire aren't relevant. Whatever guy.
 
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TomServo

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kudos said:
Except there are guards in place to block US agencies from doing surveillance on Americans. Do you think the Germans don't do it? They do it to their own people. So do the Brits. You don't hear anyone crying about them though, do you? The US is MUCH better about what they do and don't do when it comes to it's own citizens compared to other first world, less free countries.
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I can't believe you even make that statement straight faced unless your posting from work (likely). The U.S. sprawling surveillance and over use of classifying information Secret and above is ludicrous.
 
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wilkxus

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grumblethorn said:
I can't believe you even make that statement straight faced unless your posting from work (likely). The U.S. sprawling surveillance and over use of classifying information Secret and above is ludicrous.
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Whether posting from work or not, anyone working with any security clearance of any sort these days should be shown *extra* professional respect and understanding and..... more leway so to speak, in how they present their views on any public forums. It is often a difficult job fraught with moral dilemmas, no easy choices and should be respected as a very important, complicated, sometimes extremely difficult job that is in the end *VERY* appreciated.

In the heat of the moment, in debating a point it is easy for such important appreciation to *appear* to be forgotten because of the medium here..... but deep down I would wager it is safe to say we probably all agree on the above without any reservation even if we disagree on some finer details.

A lil derail BTW, since someone just brought up Hoover, anyone here aware of any decent documentaries or movies on that time of history (Hoover and the surveilance state of yesteryear?)

I liked Cranston but I found Trumbo was quite tame and fluffy and overall dissapointing. On the other hand I do NOT like Hanks much at all but Bridge of Spies was a sleeper hit for me: I initially expected to be dissapointed but was pleasantly surprised by both the treatment of the subject and Hanks performance.
 
Zapatta

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wilkxus said:
Whether posting from work or not, anyone working with any security clearance of any sort these days should be shown *extra* professional respect and understanding and..... more leway so to speak, in how they present their views on any public forums. It is often a difficult job fraught with moral dilemmas, no easy choices and should be respected as a very important, complicated, sometimes extremely difficult job that is in the end *VERY* appreciated.

In the heat of the moment, in debating a point it is easy for such important appreciation to *appear* to be forgotten because of the medium here..... but deep down I would wager it is safe to say we probably all agree on the above without any reservation even if we disagree on some finer details.

A lil derail BTW, since someone just brought up Hoover, anyone here aware of any decent documentaries or movies on that time of history (Hoover and the surveilance state of yesteryear?)

I liked Cranston but I found Trumbo was quite tame and fluffy and overall dissapointing. On the other hand I do NOT like Hanks much at all but Bridge of Spies was a sleeper hit for me: I initially expected to be dissapointed but was pleasantly surprised by both the treatment of the subject and Hanks performance.
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Nah you are buying into the myth, "We use it to stop terrorism successfully", "Ok, name one time you have", "Can't, it's a secret".

The budget for this stuff is massive, and the only justification is "If we didn't bad stuff might happen."

Best reason not to allow them to gather the majority of intelligence they do is they aren't even capable ebough to keep out of the hands of their own low level losers and trannies.

The decision makers behind these ideas are retarded government fucks, same fucks who cant figure out how to pull me building permit

Same irresponsible fucks who hired shitstains to watch the Silk Road and didn't watch them while they embezzled millions in bitcoin.
 
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Zapatta

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It's all a hilarious joke, they literally have a building full of people trying to make TOR more secure and another across town trying to unlock everything they have done.
Can't get more clown car than that.
 
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khalid

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Zapatta said:
Nah you are buying into the myth, "We use it to stop terrorism successfully", "Ok, name one time you have", "Can't, it's a secret".
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Not all intelligence gathering is good, some is definitely overreach, but I find it shocking that anyone could think its all worthless. There quite literally are bad guys plotting to blow shit up in our country and our country should definitely have people working to try and stop these people.

Does that mean we should have no privacy? Of course not, but it isn't just utterly black and white like you seem to be laying out here.
 
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Zapatta

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The price too pay "to feel safe" s too high, none of this shit ever gets rolled back. Just keeps escalating and eroding your rights. As a kid it was 'we are gonna get nuked by the Russians', Now it's same scare painted a different color. I'll take the 1 in 20+ million dice roll at getting killed by a terrorist over letting idiots dismantle everything that makes America in principle 1000x better than any other country.

And I say this even tho a girl I knew since the 6th grade was on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania.. I stayed drunk with her little brother for 3 days after and watched him over the years never get over it. Breaks my fucking heart, the govt using that as an excuse to under mine the foundation of the country disgusts me more.
 
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TJT

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Zapatta said:
The price too pay "to feel safe" s too high, none of this shit ever gets rolled back. Just keeps escalating and eroding your rights. As a kid it was 'we are gonna get nuked by the Russians', Now it's same scare painted a different color. I'll take the 1 in 20+ million dice roll at getting killed by a terrorist over letting idiots dismantle everything that makes America in principle 1000x better than any other country.

And I say this even tho a girl I knew since the 6th grade was on the plane that went down in Pennsylvania.. I stayed drunk with her little brother for 3 days after and watched him over the years never get over it. Breaks my fucking heart, the govt using that as an excuse to under mine the foundation of the country disgusts me more.
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The irony with this line of thinking is that people who think there is too much overreach carry a phone loaded full of apps and use cards to pay everything have all their data tracked at 10x the rate the government could ever do it.

Realistically, a lot of what Snowden exposed that was good merely depicted the NSA's use of a Googlebot like algorithm searching the interwebs for values to index. Just looking for "bad guy stuff" to index and relate rather than "how can I sell you shit" data to index and use on you.

This revelation isn't shocking at all.
 
Zapatta

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TJT said:
The irony with this line of thinking is that people who think there is too much overreach carry a phone loaded full of apps and use cards to pay everything have all their data tracked at 10x the rate the government could ever do it.

Realistically, a lot of what Snowden exposed that was good merely depicted the NSA's use of a Googlebot like algorithm searching the interwebs for values to index. Just looking for "bad guy stuff" to index and relate rather than "how can I sell you shit" data to index and use on you.

This revelation isn't shocking at all.
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Yeah the facebook generation is beyond stupid, and there is no way to turn them back. They willingly post shit that will fuck up their lives & job prospects.

I remember the week Google said they were gonna add peoples RL names to the search engine, I couldn't opt out fast enough. I dont even know if opting out is even an option given anymore.
 
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Xarpolis

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There's also a fair amount of home robberies of people who have posted that they are leaving on vacation. Now someone flat out knows you will not be home, so rob away.
 
Zapatta

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Xarpolis said:
There's also a fair amount of home robberies of people who have posted that they are leaving on vacation. Now someone flat out knows you will not be home, so rob away.
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When I was a kid and my parents took us shopping before going on a trip, they told us to STFU about what we were buying stuff for, "People will follow you to your house and rob it while you are away", I thought they were high, but it happened a lot in our small town.

My dad's other big thing was "Never count cash on the street, someone could be watching to see if its worth rolling you"
 
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