Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017)

Since Rogue One was brought up recently, I was thinking about the Vader scene at the end. I've read (I think here), that it was part of the reshoots and wasn't supposed to be included in the film originally. But it fits so integrally with how the film ends. What did they originally have planned for the ending??? I assume Leia was always going to be the end shot from the first script forward (literally the only film prediction I've ever made that came through), but without the Vader scene, there's really no tension.

Jive Turkey said:

Are you fucking kidding me?

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So...he says the name without ever having first heard it. However I googled it, and apparently during Attack of the Clones Dooku mentions the name to Obi-Wan, so it can be safely assumed that Obi-Wan would have told the rest of the council. I guess my actual question was more along the lines of 'How did Yoda/the Jedi actually learn the name Sidious'.

Jive Turkey said:

Since Rogue One was brought up recently, I was thinking about the Vader scene at the end. I've read (I think here), that it was part of the reshoots and wasn't supposed to be included in the film originally. But it fits so integrally with how the film ends. What did they originally have planned for the ending??? I assume Leia was always going to be the end shot from the first script forward (literally the only film prediction I've ever made that came through), but without the Vader scene, there's really no tension.

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Yes, the movie basically would have had no ending if they hadn't tacked on the Vader scene.

Lithose said:

Luke wanted to be found, its why he left a map.

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Luke didn't leave a map. He went off to find the first jedi temple and no one had heard from him since. Sometime after this Lor San Tekka found a map showing the location of the temple which he then tried to get to Leia. Luke didn't leave that with him and it's really just a guess on the part of the characters that he is even there.

Someone on facebook just posted that video of Mark Hamill talking about Rian Johnson's decisions for Luke and it got me thinking that that alone tells you all you need to know about Johnson's writing style and ALL the rest of the problems with the story. None of the decisions he made pay any mind to previous films and the way he ended the movie doesn't pay any mind to the next film. His storywriting style is incredibly myopic and only concerns itself with what is happening right here right now. "So Luke has turned into an angry hermit.." "well hold on, that doesn't really keep with his characterization and all we know about him" "doesn't matter, it will be cool". The more I think about it, the more he feels like a selfish writer and director. He carelessly killed off story lines set up by the previous director, threw characterizations of familiar people away to facilitate his story, and didn't leave anything on the table by the end for the next director to run with. It feels like he just wanted to make something self contained for himself and didn't give a shit about anyone before or after. I know people have said things similar already, it just kind of clicked with me how Hamill's complaints are really a microcosm of the whole thing

Royal said:

Luke didn't leave a map. He went off to find the first jedi temple and no one had heard from him since. Sometime after this Lor San Tekka found a map showing the location of the temple which he then tried to get to Leia. Luke didn't leave that with him and it's really just a guess on the part of the characters that he is even there.

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I could have sworn there was a line that he intentionally took it out of R2d2's memory as a clue to where he was no? Maybe not though as I think about it, its been a long time since I watched TFA.

Lithose said:

I could have sworn there was a line that he intentionally took it out of R2d2's memory as a clue to where he was no? Maybe not though as I think about it, its been a long time since I watched TFA.

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Not that I recall.

A lot of the confusion about this point is born out of the faulty notion that the movie uses to set up a hurdle in the plot. Once they have the fragment they don't really need R2's map to show where it is in the galaxy. They could have just matched it up to any full galactic map. But they wanted a pretext for not sending someone immediately to Luke and delay that until after Rey was rescued so it could be her. So they created the incomplete map angle for that. The way they depicted the two maps visually was just to drive home this flawed point of needing both to find Luke.

Royal said:

Not that I recall.

A lot of the confusion about this point is born out of the faulty notion that the movie uses to set up a hurdle in the plot. Once they have the fragment they don't really need R2's map to show where it is in the galaxy. They could have just matched it up to any full galactic map. But they wanted a pretext for not sending someone immediately to Luke and delay that until after Rey was rescued so it could be her. So they created the incomplete map angle for that. The way they depicted the two maps visually was just to drive home this flawed point of needing both to find Luke.

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This is the exact logic I used to point out that they didn't need the goddamn map fragment in the first place, because they already know everywhere in the galaxy where he isn't.

TJT said:

Well Rey is still boxed in by the Monomyth/Hero's Journey. Rian removing portions of it to be trendy don't make it good. It just makes it shitty and confusing.

But hey. You broke a mold amirite?

I would like to know what the writers were saying to Rian when he's putting all these ideas together. Rian just told them to fuck off because they don't understand his genius I would bet!

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I would hope they advised him that deconstructing something as simplistic as Star Wars could spell the death of the franchise. Its just fucking mind blowing how they greenlit a full top to bottom deconstruction as "progressive" to the Star Wars universe.

When you deconstruct a shit, you are left with diarrhea-- something that you can't even pick up or move around story-wise anymore.

There was nothing to deconstruct. And the proof of that is EXACTLY that its been replaced with absolutely nothing but homogenized action and dead ends and dead characters.

kegkilla said:

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looks more like tenderoi imho

Jive Turkey said:

What did they originally have planned for the ending???

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I thought it was widely reported that Vader showed up on the beach and murders anyone still left alive, but they slow him down enough to transmit/fly out the plans before they buy it.

kegkilla said:

What's funny is that if you did a deconstruction of their deconstructed SJW Star Wars bullshit it would probably be a pretty entertaining movie.

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Rian's still got 3 movies.

Enough to deconstruct to jenkum-- get us all high again.

Wombat said:

I thought it was widely reported that Vader showed up on the beach and murders anyone still left alive, but they slow him down enough to transmit/fly out the plans before they buy it.

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Oh, I vaguely remember that now... I think

Vader on a beach just sounds wrong

I saw this yesterday and came here to post my thoughts and I'm kind of glad I read back a couple of pages.

I walked out of the theater enjoying it but definitely felt it's flaws.

A: the movie was way too damn long for the story it ultimately set out to tell. The entire middle 3rd of that movie (Fin's "quest") could have been left on the cutting room floor, and it wouldn't have made a difference. It felt so out of place for a star wars movie. I mean it looked like they straight up filmed it on location in Vegas. There was nothing other worldly about it at all outside of a few token aliens. So by the time things got decent again (the last battle) I was ready to leave.

B: The First Order is just really too generic of a bad guy, and kind of doesn't make sense to me. The Empire was overthrown and defeated and most of their fleet was completely destroyed over Endor. Where the hell did they come from? And how do they have this much power? Further more, I guess I just assumed that Leia would be a big wig in the new Government/Republic, that it amazes me she's the leader of a resistance. I know this is mostly from TFA, but it was easier to overlook in TFA than this one. In this one we literally had a slow speed chase in space for no reason other than, we had no fucking idea what to do with all the non Jedi characters, and since that is only two, here we are just doing to put them in a holding pattern (literally).

With that said I think the Rey part of the movie was much better. Yeah there were some holes for sure, but at least it was decently enjoyable. For me, it's Luke realizing the Jedi's worst enemy in all of history was themselves and their adherence to their dogma. I liked seeing Kylo's back story. However, they still seemed to not really have anything for who Rey actually is. Overall it felt like they had a ton of build up in 2015 that ultimately went nowhere at best, regressed at worst. And now I can see it was the director who is at the root of all of this. But, the producers are still the same. Hell, Abrams even executive produced this, so they still green lit it all. I dunno they have their work cut out for them for two years to try to recover some kind of story with a decent resolution and actual back story to all of this.

Namon said:

The First Order is just really too generic of a bad guy, and kind of doesn't make sense to me. The Empire was overthrown and defeated and most of their fleet was completely destroyed over Endor. Where the hell did they come from? And how do they have this much power? Further more, I guess I just assumed that Leia would be a big wig in the new Government/Republic, that it amazes me she's the leader of a resistance. I know this is mostly from TFA, but it was easier to overlook in TFA than this one. In this one we literally had a slow speed chase in space for no reason other than, we had no fucking idea what to do with all the non Jedi characters, and since that is only two, here we are just doing to put them in a holding pattern (literally).

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A lot of the explanation of the First Order, what we have of it so far, is covered in the novels that have come out since TFA. I know that doesn't make it work nearly as well for the more casual moviegoer but I think they feel like they give them enough to get from point A to B to C as much as is necessary in the movies and let the more interested fans find that stuff out in the books if it interests them.

Most of the Imperial Fleet actually survived Endor and they were gradually worn down afterwards, with their last gasp having been at the Battle of Jakku. Palps plan, should he be killed or the defeat of the Empire appear to be inevitable, was to ravage as much of the galaxy as possible then have what remained of the Imperial forces retreat into the Unknown Regions to gather strength for an eventual return. That's when they rebranded themselves the First Order and where Snoke entered the picture. They built themselves back up over time with some assistance with the systems that believed in Imperial rule but felt that it had just been the leadership that was flawed.

Leia did go on to become a major player in the New Republic that was established after the Empire was overthrown. When she was seeking the Chancellorship one of her political opponents (who was an Imperial sympathizer) discovered that her real father had been Darth Vader and made that information public, which undermined her political authority and cost her the election. That was when she left the Senate and started raising a private military to push back against the Imperial remnant that had started to reemerge, which she felt was a precursor to a broader war against the New Republic.