StarCraft 2
- Thread starter Stosh
- Start date
There were island maps for a bit back in SC1 vanilla / early BW but then the competitive scene realized they were junk because of massive imba. Zerg really couldn't lose on island maps because they had the only good all purpose flyers. I'm trying to refer here to KeSPA and high level BW not playing someone who is 680-25-1000 on Battle.net. I can't really think of a KeSPA map off hand that didn't have a "free" natural. Or at least pretty much all the popular maps did. Granted yes there was a more prevalence of mineral-only bases but generally those were your 4th+ base.
I used to have the sickest reaver drop build in vanilla SC1. Every time I would pick an island map and my opponent saw I was toss they would automatically pick Zerg, thinking they'd have an easy win with mutas. Had like a 95% winrate with that shit haha.
Yeah, as I became more famous and my replays started making the rounds, you could start seeing the influence that my 2 gate and reaver drops were making in the Korean scene. Brought a tear to my eye every time I saw reaver/shuttle harass from Stork or Bisu, knowing that I pioneered the strat and was able to help their careers with my revolutionary builds.
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
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Yeah and Delta Quadrant, Lost Temple and Kulas Ravine were balanced maps. If a map is somehow special, the odds if it being retarded dramatically increase and the maps you talk about weren't those that had balanced BW games.
Nirgon
Log Wizard
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All I'm saying is this current meta game and balance changes that do result from it is all about maps being a certain way with little variety. It's also becoming a bio ball vs bio ball fest. Am I insane to think that the T3 units in bulk should in almost every case stomp t1 units? I mean look at WC3 "castle" tier. You didn't see a mass of troll spear throwers obliterating a mass of knights. Here? You can lose a pack of ultras to marine/marauder stim pretty fucking easy unless you use infestor. I really just don't feel good about top tier units, casters and the lack of map variety. I'm not complaining about balance right now, which is pretty amazing for an RTS/RTS xpac on launch but merely pointing out areas of improvement, maybe those areas of improvement in my eyes rape balance in the eyes of many. If certain maps types favor a certain race, well, maybe its time to think about what you'd give said race to deal with it.. in an expansion or otherwise.
For instance. Let's take island maps. Right now, you might argue toss and we'll just for the sake of argument say "no reason to play other than toss in an island map". That's where I, as a designer, would add upgrades (hey look they're optional) that you could pick (at a cost of course!) to remedy that issue. Really, I'm shocked they never added the goliath range upgrade in vanilla and waited until BW. Things like that I think they can bring in and handle race problem areas while at the same time adding flavor to the game. A bunch of the upgrades they have implemented into the campaign I'm sure could be ported over with tweaks here and there to make them make more sense in multiplayer. As far as timing to bring the patch in to include such things? Do it for the start of a season imo, ie: "Last season we didn't see players building unit X against race Y" -> patch notes: "New upgraded added to ultralisk cavern that gives them a short burst of speed on activation". Or "last season race X had no way to be aggressive early with race Y and vice versa", you see this all the time with against race X I just always fast expand and easily cover my ass. I'd prefer this worked out to "against race X, if I scout he's going FE, I research this ability I don't usually get and punish him", it allows for much more play diversity. When's the right time to start thinking in these directions? I dunno, I'd say after 2 seasons. Again, I gotta commend their balance on launch of HotS but I hope they can accomplish the same in Legacy of the Void with a little more flavor.
For instance. Let's take island maps. Right now, you might argue toss and we'll just for the sake of argument say "no reason to play other than toss in an island map". That's where I, as a designer, would add upgrades (hey look they're optional) that you could pick (at a cost of course!) to remedy that issue. Really, I'm shocked they never added the goliath range upgrade in vanilla and waited until BW. Things like that I think they can bring in and handle race problem areas while at the same time adding flavor to the game. A bunch of the upgrades they have implemented into the campaign I'm sure could be ported over with tweaks here and there to make them make more sense in multiplayer. As far as timing to bring the patch in to include such things? Do it for the start of a season imo, ie: "Last season we didn't see players building unit X against race Y" -> patch notes: "New upgraded added to ultralisk cavern that gives them a short burst of speed on activation". Or "last season race X had no way to be aggressive early with race Y and vice versa", you see this all the time with against race X I just always fast expand and easily cover my ass. I'd prefer this worked out to "against race X, if I scout he's going FE, I research this ability I don't usually get and punish him", it allows for much more play diversity. When's the right time to start thinking in these directions? I dunno, I'd say after 2 seasons. Again, I gotta commend their balance on launch of HotS but I hope they can accomplish the same in Legacy of the Void with a little more flavor.
Yes.
That entire post really fails to hit the mark of what makes an RTS good at a competitive level. You should really educate yourself on the history of SC:BW, really the only RTS we can draw knowledge from, about how the players and strategies evolved to handle certain things instead of your knee-jerk "patch everything" approach.
Zaphid
Trakanon Raider
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*sigh*
Are you playing LoL by chance ? I'll try to keep this as short, but you are looking for a different game with these ideas.
If T3 beats T1 every single time, what is the point of T1 except for some cheesy rushes ? Unit balance needs to be circular, simplifying a bit, but you are looking for t1<t2<t3<t1, because otherwise you end up with t3 units in every single game with zero variety. The real game is even more complex than that with single unit making waves of others useless, effectiveness being dependant on micro (phoenix vs muta) or simply numbers game, where "bad unit" is used against it's counter simply because you have so many of them. Then you have upgrades, resource requirements, supply efficiency...
Your other idea relies on the designers knowing everything about the game, which is really naive. Nobody can know how the game will be played in the end and the best features are often designer oversights. So you patch stuff to please some graphs showing you not so good numbers, but players figure out a strat that starts breaking the game, so you patch with a counter-upgrade. Then players figure something new that will break the game, so you patch again. And then nobody is playing anymore since you are playing patch-a-mole, instead of designing Starcraft and you started this shit for no good reason. The magic of Starcraft is that what you learn now will be still applicable a year from now. But you still won't play the game perfectly, you will make many mistakes. Don't underestimate the depth of this game.
Are you playing LoL by chance ? I'll try to keep this as short, but you are looking for a different game with these ideas.
If T3 beats T1 every single time, what is the point of T1 except for some cheesy rushes ? Unit balance needs to be circular, simplifying a bit, but you are looking for t1<t2<t3<t1, because otherwise you end up with t3 units in every single game with zero variety. The real game is even more complex than that with single unit making waves of others useless, effectiveness being dependant on micro (phoenix vs muta) or simply numbers game, where "bad unit" is used against it's counter simply because you have so many of them. Then you have upgrades, resource requirements, supply efficiency...
Your other idea relies on the designers knowing everything about the game, which is really naive. Nobody can know how the game will be played in the end and the best features are often designer oversights. So you patch stuff to please some graphs showing you not so good numbers, but players figure out a strat that starts breaking the game, so you patch with a counter-upgrade. Then players figure something new that will break the game, so you patch again. And then nobody is playing anymore since you are playing patch-a-mole, instead of designing Starcraft and you started this shit for no good reason. The magic of Starcraft is that what you learn now will be still applicable a year from now. But you still won't play the game perfectly, you will make many mistakes. Don't underestimate the depth of this game.
Nirgon
Log Wizard
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What's the point of T1 units then? Not trying to tech rush like a noob and getting stomped! Working on gaining early map control!
I also don't see the problem with an upgrade that's really only good on island maps to balance out problems a race has on them. I don't see that as fail, it opens the map pool and makes play more diverse. Or an upgrade/unit you get on certain types of maps. It's all just getting reallyone dimensionalto me.
As far as tech'ing, I'd say I'm in the WC3 school of what "tech'ing up" should really do, and that's a fair point to blast as an SC2 player. I'm really just saying that I'm really disappointed with the power of a full T3 army vs a full T1 army (read: gateway units against T3).
I got bored last time with the game when I felt like there was literally no reason to tech up as a toss player. Everything was just all gateway units, 99% of the games I played and it is getting that way with MMM ball for me. Spamming t1 units at each other to decide 95% of games is something I don't agree with from a tech tree stand point. Mothership, battlecruisers... all of that are just fluff really for almost every game played that I watch or have played.
It's not a patch everything approach, its give the races things that make them better on different maps in areas they are lacking. I'll take that over a "base with ramp and one entrance on high ground + natural" on every map with a somewhat "risky" choice of 3rds.
I also don't see the problem with an upgrade that's really only good on island maps to balance out problems a race has on them. I don't see that as fail, it opens the map pool and makes play more diverse. Or an upgrade/unit you get on certain types of maps. It's all just getting reallyone dimensionalto me.
As far as tech'ing, I'd say I'm in the WC3 school of what "tech'ing up" should really do, and that's a fair point to blast as an SC2 player. I'm really just saying that I'm really disappointed with the power of a full T3 army vs a full T1 army (read: gateway units against T3).
I got bored last time with the game when I felt like there was literally no reason to tech up as a toss player. Everything was just all gateway units, 99% of the games I played and it is getting that way with MMM ball for me. Spamming t1 units at each other to decide 95% of games is something I don't agree with from a tech tree stand point. Mothership, battlecruisers... all of that are just fluff really for almost every game played that I watch or have played.
It's not a patch everything approach, its give the races things that make them better on different maps in areas they are lacking. I'll take that over a "base with ramp and one entrance on high ground + natural" on every map with a somewhat "risky" choice of 3rds.
Xequecal
Trump's Staff
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Actually, it was the exact opposite of that. Zerg couldn't win at all on island maps because they had no way to get a second gas before the overlord transport upgrade, or 200 gas and 160 seconds AFTER Lair tech, and then they still had to use a slow overlord to move a drone to another island and THEN build the hatchery. Terran/Protoss would have two expansions by this point and just kill you with drops.
The balance of the game probably has no relevance to the level you play at, you're just making it a convenient excuse.