StarCraft 2

Gilgamel

A Man Chooses....
2,869
52
I wish WCS NA was half this good to watch. Going to be so anticlimactic when we get hero vs revival final or some shit.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
Stephano makes me want to play zerg, but I know I won't ever be that good :-/ He actually realized that targeting queens on the medivacs is priority no. 1 to shut down drops, then you just need a few units around to neutralize the hellbats, because the medivacs can't stick around to heal.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
I still feel like TvZ looks a bit imba, you literally never see zergs just overrunning their opponent in macro games, it's almost always gaining a big advantage through midgame timing with terran having plenty of ways to come back. Zerg gets the short end of the stick once, be it bad engagement or badly defended drop and they are in a downfall spiral.
 

Itlan

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,994
744
Hellbats seem to tank damage way too efficiently imo. It's like that army can't be broken.

Then again, it could just be MVP outplaying everyone by miles.
 

Gilgamel

A Man Chooses....
2,869
52
MVP was well ahead in army supply both games with the marauder/hellbat push even with Stephano defending with roaches. Guy with more stuff wins applies even at the highest level, especially when Stephano stops the push for like 30 seconds on Star Station and decides to make 8 drones and double expand instead of just crushing it since MVP hadn't even made a third cc. Add in the repeated SCV buffers to ensure favorable trades and Stephano had no chance.

I think it makes sense that if someone goes all in on two bases you have to devote 100% to stopping it if you expanded to hold. Otherwise there's no point in trying to hit those timings and every game would be 45 minutes.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
Stephano lost a lot of drones and he was in danger of not being able to make enough stuff to stop further attacks and his ability to stop random allins effortlessly is almost unrivaled among zergs. He got impatient after that though and it was the game that broke him. If something about hellbats needs changing then it would probably be the bio attribute, so that they have finite HP when pushing with medivacs. MVP could be that much better, of course, but there seems to be a crop of terrans who simply don't lose macro TvZs, Innovation leading the trend. I really hope there's a zerg who can dethrone them (Soulkey), it would be sad if ZvZs just got changed into TvTs. I want protosses to actually be in contention for titles, dammit, and Hero will disappoint in WCS AM, I can feel it.
 

Itlan

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,994
744
MVP was well ahead in army supply both games with the marauder/hellbat push even with Stephano defending with roaches.Guy with more stuff wins applies even at the highest level, especially when Stephano stops the push for like 30 seconds on Star Station and decides to make 8 drones and double expand instead of just crushing it since MVP hadn't even made a third cc. Add in the repeated SCV buffers to ensure favorable trades and Stephano had no chance.

I think it makes sense that if someone goes all in on two bases you have to devote 100% to stopping it if you expanded to hold. Otherwise there's no point in trying to hit those timings and every game would be 45 minutes.
Dimaga would like a word with you...
 

Mures

Blackwing Lair Raider
4,014
511
If you're referring to game 2 of dimaga vs mvp dimaga never really had a larger army, his supply advantage was all in drones. In some of the earlier engagements hemighthave had a 10-20 army supply lead, big difference from the 50-60 suplly lead he had, and not enough to overcome directly engaging presplit seige tanks.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
I was away most of this weekend but luckily my mornings were pretty free so I could watch the games on my tablet. I just want to say the mech game of Mvp vs Dimaga was one of the most exciting, knife edge matches I can ever remember. Mvp constantly being down on overall supply but being one of the few players (perhaps even the first on a big stage like this) to fully execute completely getting rid of all SCV supply in a mech late game (it really only works with mech) and just having SCVs dedicated to gas and using MULE to gather minerals. I still feel mech is an inferior composition to biomine. Just look at a few of those engagements where Dima managed to cloud a clump of 3 tanks. Mvp had a few horrible engagements but luckily it seemed like Dimaga wasn't 100% sure how to beat mech other than Viper/Roach/Hydra. He didn't nydus or anything and just kept running head first into miles of tank lines. But that game was so fun to watch. My family was yelling at me to get going because we were leaving the cabin to go hiking and I kept making excuses for puttering around so I could watch the rest of that game.

Glad the king is back on top. WCS EU was so good and completely putting WCS NA to shame.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
PROTOSS BUFF BALANCE TEST MAP
I'm sure you guys have been seeing this too, but we're noticing Protoss slightly underperforming at the highest level of play especially in Korea and Europe. We gathered a lot of feedback in this area and opinion seems mixed on whether Protoss is weak or not.

However, just in case they are and because they do look slightly weaker in terms of performance, we'd like to start on a balance test map so that we can be prepared with a patch if needed down the line. We aren't planning on patching right away, but we'd like to at least try some changes to see how they affect the Protoss game.

As we've been saying many times before, our goal is still to make the game more dynamic and allow for more diverse action throughout the game. We feel the advantage of this is watching the same matchup over and over is a lot more exciting because you never know what you're going to get. If there's constant action throughout the game there are varying degrees of successes and failures each time which really shape up every game differently. Compared that to what we were seeing last year PvT for example where both sides just macro up then meet in the center of the map for 1 or 2 main battles. This is why we'd much rather buff something on the Protoss that allows them to be more aggressive throughout the game rather than nerfing strong harass units like Medivacs.

What we'd like to first try is Warp Prisms starting off with the upgraded speed and getting rid of the speed upgrade.This will encourage Protoss to be more aggressive throughout the game from a much earlier point in time. We'd like to see what this change does and also would like to make sure it doesn't buff the all in rushes too much. Of course if this feels like a good direction after testing but feels like too big of a buff, we can also try a slightly increased movement speed on the unit while keeping the upgraded speed the same.

Please give us your thoughts, and we'll try to push out a balance test map this week at the earliest.
Weirdly enough, this change might make it, since to warp in you have to remain in a single place for rather long time. Using WPs in major battles should be hallmark of a good protoss, but without speed you had to hope the other guy didn't really want to kill it.
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Like DKim said I wouldn't be shocked to see just a buff to the base speed and retain the speed upgrade. I'd like to see it put in though because it is one of those things the Toss doesn't get to do "for free." It will cost them APM and multitask to use it and the new speed. It isn't like just increasing a damage number by X or HP number by Y.
 

Zaphid

Trakanon Raider
5,862
294
Yeah, I'd like to see maybe build time increase if it ends up making allins too good, because robo units are bottleneck for almost all of them. Then I can imagine making one instead of oracle/phoenix and flying it around to snipe a unit with stalkers here and there...
[11:30:04 AM] Dario W?nsch: haha
[12:18:28 PM] Dario W?nsch: lol
[12:18:32 PM] Dario W?nsch: warp prism starting with speed
[12:18:36 PM] Dario W?nsch: Hero 100% winrate in all matchups
[12:20:09 PM] HyeonDeok Song: ;;;
[12:20:14 PM] HyeonDeok Song: really?
[12:20:19 PM] Shawn Simon: LOL
[12:20:47 PM] HyeonDeok Song: ;;;;;already decided?
[12:20:51 PM] Dario W?nsch: no
[12:20:53 PM] Victor Goossens: i think balance map now
[12:20:53 PM] HyeonDeok Song: ahh
[12:20:54 PM] Dario W?nsch: just testing
[12:20:57 PM] HyeonDeok Song: lol
[12:21:04 PM] HyeonDeok Song: i want it
 

Tenks

Bronze Knight of the Realm
14,163
607
Yeah my concern would be like a 7g + robo where the Toss rushes out +2/+2 and hits at that timing with a bunch of gates and like 2-3 prisms around the base. It feels like it would be really hard to deal with that scenario. But I'm not sure if a simple speed upgrade would suddenly make that build more viable.
 

Sidian

Lord Nagafen Raider
1,279
7
I like it because it'll probably mean more harass opportunities for protoss, but I do think it'll make the all-ins just that much stronger. Which, let's be honest, are already strong enough.

Biomine play against zerg seems kinda overpowered. Especially when it's just a constant parade push like Innovation or Flash do. Plus, grabbing a few marauders to soak banelings and/or help against roaches makes it that much better. Innovation is going to get Terran nerfed just like MVP has done. Let's see...maybe not allowing Mines to be reactored out?