Starfield - Fallout fallout that isn't ES6

Cybsled · Mar 5, 2024

You can’t blame everything on DEI like a toddler screaming that the broccoli is touching the chicken nugget and as a result, the chicken nugget has been poisoned

The problem with the game was the vision for the game wasn’t consistent and changed through development, which resulted in a lot of half baked ideas. They also made the game a mile wide and an inch deep and tried to foist too much on the ancient creation engine, resulting in a bad gameplay experience (aka loading)

kinadin · Mar 5, 2024

People play these games for the narratives and stories. When you hire people who refuse to push boundaries you end up with stale content. People would probably tolerate using a dated engine if the game had a solid story and narrative, but it doesn't. It's bland and dry. That's why people blame DEI for a lot of the shit.

RobXIII · Mar 5, 2024

Cybsled said:
You can’t blame everything on DEI like a toddler screaming that the broccoli is touching the chicken nugget and as a result, the chicken nugget has been poisoned

The problem with the game was the vision for the game wasn’t consistent and changed through development, which resulted in a lot of half baked ideas. They also made the game a mile wide and an inch deep and tried to foist too much on the ancient creation engine, resulting in a bad gameplay experience (aka loading)

I'm not blaming the games failures on DEI, but to be honest, there was like one hetero relationship in like the entire story, and the spouse was dead.

That said, I enjoyed my time with it, beat it, and planned on doing a few NG+ to get powerful, but just couldn't stomach the """"end game""""

Utnayan · Mar 5, 2024

Cybsled said:
You can’t blame everything on DEI

Have you seen what is happening outside the bubble lately, not only to workforces across the US in all sectors, but also the complete deterioration of products and services with a substantial price increase to boot? Just where do you exactly think this is coming from? I can think of 6 of them off the top of my head and you are right, it just isn't DEI. But that alone sprouts into the other pieces of the snowball that was generated here.

1) Hiring of workforce personnel not skilled for the job but to meet a DEI metric.
2) Unionization when leveraged to protect them.
3) As a result of 1 and 2, these same people thinking having a job is an entitlement. No one is entitled to a job. You earn it. And to keep it, you perform. Cut and dry.
4) As a result of 1, 2 and 3 - the skilled workers take on more of the responsibility, workload, and hours which are not compensated in the form of more manpower.
5) Labor and Cost over-runs and budget blow outs, missing milestones, countless meetings not on development - but on messaging of what the final product's "message" is rather than is it fun to play. (To the point where the messaging has now taken over the development).

End result:

1a) Customers pay the price increase to match profit margins from all the above 1-5.
2a) Customers get to see the end result of 1-5, and that end result has been exponentially getting worse with games being developed in the US.

Ironic that we aren't seeing the same pattern from our Japanese friends isn't it? Latest being Final Fantasy Rebirth.

So, let me put this in perspective with real world commercials - and we all know what happened in these sequels - whether from messaging or limited talent pool - so let's not be obtuse.

The last of us: 37 Million copies sold. The last of us 2: 10 million - 72% decrease
Horizon Zero Dawn: 25 million copies sold. Horizon Zero Dawn 2 (Forbidden West): 10 Million - 60% decrease
Diablo 3: 30 Million as of 2015 (Most likely a lot more) - Diablo 4: Est. 9.5 Million: 68% decrease

I could write 20 more on the top of my head.

Inherently, the risk associated is held to an original IP. Never before have we seen such detrimental commercial failures from sequels of incredibly successful original IP's in the history of gaming. All at the EXACT same time within the time spawn of DEI being implemented everywhere and all this bullshit started.

Let's move to budgets:

The last of us: $54 Million. The last of us 2: $220 Million.
Horizon Zero Dawn: $47 Million. Horizon Forbidden West: $220 Million.
Diablo - Unknown.

Now let's look at how it is being corrected:

Over 18,000 layoffs happened in the last 14 months in this industry alone.

Capitalism doesn't give two shits what you are. It cares whether you can design a product/service/project within budget, meet timelines, and be commercially successful.

The ride for these fucks is over.

Cybsled · Mar 5, 2024

You're making a false equivalence. Do some companies hire to fill some manner of quota in some instances? Sure. But lets not pretend that is some major reason for cost overruns or poor hiring results. Some people interview well but do poorly in role. And projects can be mismanaged.

Look at Curt's story with 38 Studios - those massive overruns had nothing to do with some DEI boogeyman, they had to do with poor management of company costs

Fucker · Mar 5, 2024

Utnayan said:
Have you seen what is happening outside the bubble lately, not only to workforces across the US in all sectors, but also the complete deterioration of products and services with a substantial price increase to boot? Just where do you exactly think this is coming from? I can think of 6 of them off the top of my head and you are right, it just isn't DEI. But that alone sprouts into the other pieces of the snowball that was generated here.

1) Hiring of workforce personnel not skilled for the job but to meet a DEI metric.
2) Unionization when leveraged to protect them.
3) As a result of 1 and 2, these same people thinking having a job is an entitlement. No one is entitled to a job. You earn it. And to keep it, you perform. Cut and dry.
4) As a result of 1, 2 and 3 - the skilled workers take on more of the responsibility, workload, and hours which are not compensated in the form of more manpower.
5) Labor and Cost over-runs and budget blow outs, missing milestones, countless meetings not on development - but on messaging of what the final product's "message" is rather than is it fun to play. (To the point where the messaging has now taken over the development).

End result:

1a) Customers pay the price increase to match profit margins from all the above 1-5.
2a) Customers get to see the end result of 1-5, and that end result has been exponentially getting worse with games being developed in the US.

Ironic that we aren't seeing the same pattern from our Japanese friends isn't it? Latest being Final Fantasy Rebirth.

So, let me put this in perspective with real world commercials - and we all know what happened in these sequels - whether from messaging or limited talent pool - so let's not be obtuse.

The last of us: 37 Million copies sold. The last of us 2: 10 million - 72% decrease
Horizon Zero Dawn: 25 million copies sold. Horizon Zero Dawn 2 (Forbidden West): 10 Million - 60% decrease
Diablo 3: 30 Million as of 2015 (Most likely a lot more) - Diablo 4: Est. 9.5 Million: 68% decrease

I could write 20 more on the top of my head.

Inherently, the risk associated is held to an original IP. Never before have we seen such detrimental commercial failures from sequels of incredibly successful original IP's in the history of gaming. All at the EXACT same time within the time spawn of DEI being implemented everywhere and all this bullshit started.

Let's move to budgets:

The last of us: $54 Million. The last of us 2: $220 Million.
Horizon Zero Dawn: $47 Million. Horizon Forbidden West: $220 Million.
Diablo - Unknown.

Now let's look at how it is being corrected:

Over 18,000 layoffs happened in the last 14 months in this industry alone.

Capitalism doesn't give two shits what you are. It cares whether you can design a product/service/project within budget, meet timelines, and be commercially successful.

The ride for these fucks is over.

All this on top of absolutely massive payrolls. What the fuck are these people doing? D4 had 9000 people working on it at various times. Not concurrently, sure, but the total is still astounding. If you told me D4 was the product of a team of NINE people, I would have believed you. 9k for results so poor is shocking.

Furry · Mar 5, 2024

This game was objectively bad, and no surprise the modders said fuck it and abandoned ship. I have plenty of money to waste on trash like this... but I don't want to. Probably the last time I spend money on bethesda anything until a release comes out, ages, and I'm still hearing good things. I just cant be bothered with more trash like this.

Tuco · Mar 5, 2024

Utnayan said:
Now let's look at how it is being corrected:

Over 18,000 layoffs happened in the last 14 months in this industry alone.

Similarly to my previous post about statistics around sales vs budget vs dei, would be interesting to see dei policies / hiring vs layoffs. Your thoughts on bigoted hiring/culture dooming the quality of the product are sound, but statistics around it (if that's even possible) would be pretty compelling.

DickTrickle · Mar 5, 2024

Utnayan said:
Have you seen what is happening outside the bubble lately, not only to workforces across the US in all sectors, but also the complete deterioration of products and services with a substantial price increase to boot? Just where do you exactly think this is coming from? I can think of 6 of them off the top of my head and you are right, it just isn't DEI. But that alone sprouts into the other pieces of the snowball that was generated here.

1) Hiring of workforce personnel not skilled for the job but to meet a DEI metric.
2) Unionization when leveraged to protect them.
3) As a result of 1 and 2, these same people thinking having a job is an entitlement. No one is entitled to a job. You earn it. And to keep it, you perform. Cut and dry.
4) As a result of 1, 2 and 3 - the skilled workers take on more of the responsibility, workload, and hours which are not compensated in the form of more manpower.
5) Labor and Cost over-runs and budget blow outs, missing milestones, countless meetings not on development - but on messaging of what the final product's "message" is rather than is it fun to play. (To the point where the messaging has now taken over the development).

End result:

1a) Customers pay the price increase to match profit margins from all the above 1-5.
2a) Customers get to see the end result of 1-5, and that end result has been exponentially getting worse with games being developed in the US.

Ironic that we aren't seeing the same pattern from our Japanese friends isn't it? Latest being Final Fantasy Rebirth.

So, let me put this in perspective with real world commercials - and we all know what happened in these sequels - whether from messaging or limited talent pool - so let's not be obtuse.

The last of us: 37 Million copies sold. The last of us 2: 10 million - 72% decrease
Horizon Zero Dawn: 25 million copies sold. Horizon Zero Dawn 2 (Forbidden West): 10 Million - 60% decrease
Diablo 3: 30 Million as of 2015 (Most likely a lot more) - Diablo 4: Est. 9.5 Million: 68% decrease

I could write 20 more on the top of my head.

Inherently, the risk associated is held to an original IP. Never before have we seen such detrimental commercial failures from sequels of incredibly successful original IP's in the history of gaming. All at the EXACT same time within the time spawn of DEI being implemented everywhere and all this bullshit started.

Let's move to budgets:

The last of us: $54 Million. The last of us 2: $220 Million.
Horizon Zero Dawn: $47 Million. Horizon Forbidden West: $220 Million.
Diablo - Unknown.

Now let's look at how it is being corrected:

Over 18,000 layoffs happened in the last 14 months in this industry alone.

Capitalism doesn't give two shits what you are. It cares whether you can design a product/service/project within budget, meet timelines, and be commercially successful.

View attachment 518222

The ride for these fucks is over.

There's more union members in Japan than the US. And even in the US it's only 11%. Yeah, they have some power, but it gets exaggerated and it's specific to certain industries. There's almost no unionization in the gaming or software fields, either, so it's weird to make that your number two pillar.

popsicledeath · Mar 5, 2024

The game industry got huge and is possiblity collapsing under it's own weight. The successes allowed them to focus on everything but making games. DEI shit is just one thing the industry distracted itself with, but it's such an egregious example because at least over hiring and going bonkers with perks was tangentially related to potential employee benefits that would improve the game development. DEI was just retarded politics that couldn't possibly have any material benefit to a company.

The problem is there are also a ton of normal business things to blame, so the people thinking DEI is over are deluding themselves. DEI is a cancer that will be hard to cut away because it's the most malignant form of social justice and political correctness and virtue signalling and all the things they have always plagued these industries.

Game companies aren't going to suddenly go anti woke. They're going to scale back in many ways, including some DEI fat, but the underlying ideology will remain. Just like it has in politics and public employment and increasingly in the military etc.

Sorry bros, but studios cutting some diversity hasn't somehow undermined or changed the slow creep of Marxism that has been going on for a very long time. Of course it'll help rationalize your next woke video gay-me though.

popsicledeath · Mar 5, 2024

Cybsled said:
You're making a false equivalence. Do some companies hire to fill some manner of quota in some instances? Sure. But lets not pretend that is some major reason for cost overruns or poor hiring results. Some people interview well but do poorly in role. And projects can be mismanaged.

Look at Curt's story with 38 Studios - those massive overruns had nothing to do with some DEI boogeyman, they had to do with poor management of company costs

Sure, sure, the underlying reason a company that exists to produce games starts doing a bunch of other things with their success other than putting money back into being better at their primary business is the problem. So, technically DEI is a symptom, perhaps and not the actual cause.

The difference is when it's always ideologically driven in one direction and is so fundamentally counter to the purpose of the business. Then the symptom of things like DEI shouldn't be so casually eye rolled away as no big deal.

And no, it's not just a matter of sometimes hiring people that interview well but don't perform. That's always the case and a given, so it's retarded to point to such a factor and think you've identified a root cause or real problem. That's toddler level point and identifying without any insight.

Please review your "this is fine" and "burgers" memes. Then tell us how you'd feel if you hadn't eaten breakfast.

Cybsled · Mar 5, 2024

You're positing a theory with no actual basis in reality. A prior post outlined the main culprit: these game companies are awash with money which leads to more bureaucracy and needless complication, executive meddling to maximize shareholder value, and certain things just costing more

popsicledeath · Mar 5, 2024

Sure, sure, that's why these companies get awash with money and all start blowing it on Christan Nationalism and right wing causes, right? They just have so much money they can't help but put statements on load screens about how they're a company that acknowledges life begins at conception.

And IF that were happening, I'm sure the brilliant point you'd be making is the problem is simply that sometimes people look good in interviews but don't perform well and it's all very normal business trends.

You have a valid point the DEI stuff is a symptom or byproduct, but then you just point at things that have always existed and say thoae things have always existed, as if that's insight.

A theory without actual basis in reality, except institutions captured by liberalism in almost every faucet of our society and every western society for all time.

I can see you standing on a university campus. DEI!?! Sometimes a student's application looks good but they don't succeed scholastically... As if you just explained why academia has shifted hard left and conservatives bail under threats and mistreatment and the institutions lose credibility and slowly erode over time... as has happened repeatedly under liberal capture for as long as history has been recorded, before our modern definition of liberal even existed.

Then again, counterpoint, you like to just point at basic shit like you've just cracked the code of the nature of man, so I guess I'm the idiot for bothering.

(And I didn't quote you directly as a subtle jab at the the annoying response without responding that you do as if you're above direct engagement and instead just speak into the ether with your wisdom)

You're more annoying than sone asshole posters who at least have strong, nuanced opinions even if wrong. You just post banal shit and then jerk off to the sound of your own jerking off.

You're a one man circle jerk.

popsicledeath · Mar 5, 2024

Cybsled said:
You're positing a theory with no actual basis in reality. A prior post outlined the main culprit: these game companies are awash with money which leads to more bureaucracy and needless complication, executive meddling to maximize shareholder value, and certain things just costing more

Are you AI or having a stroke? You just word salad a bunch of shit you'd read in outdated corporate tech blogs and then claim victory without actual making any argument or point.

There are corporate problems where despite being awash in funds they try to cut corners and cost themselves in the long run. Or "invest" in things to help production that just bog down production. That's not what I see with companies like Bethesda that start to funnel money into pet social projects and signalling instead of their literal business.

Basically, your boss is hiring all his incompetent friends and you sound like the head of HR saying sometimes a new hire looks good on paper but doesn't perform, and then refuses to fire them because you're covering for the shit boss and suspect you yourself aren't qualified in your job either.

Kiroy · Mar 6, 2024

Cybsled said:
You're making a false equivalence. Do some companies hire to fill some manner of quota in some instances? Sure. But lets not pretend that is some major reason for cost overruns or poor hiring results. Some people interview well but do poorly in role. And projects can be mismanaged.

Look at Curt's story with 38 Studios - those massive overruns had nothing to do with some DEI boogeyman, they had to do with poor management of company costs

Lol 38 studios was a decade ago - there’s been sea changes in all sectors since

Verging on an IOOTI type arguement here…

Cybsled · Mar 6, 2024

Kiroy said:
ol 38 studios was a decade ago - there’s been sea changes in all sectors since

Thank you for proving my point - the past few posts have pretty much been "zomg DEI invented cost overruns and poor money management that results in no games/bad games and is a recent phenomenon!"

TheBeagle · Mar 6, 2024

Cybsled said:
Thank you for proving my point - the past few posts have pretty much been "zomg DEI invented cost overruns and poor money management that results in no games/bad games and is a recent phenomenon!"

No one is saying they invented cost overruns, nice strawman. People were hearing about the DoD buying $200 hammers in the 80's. The DEI shit is just the latest flavor of milking the consumer for more $$$, but with an identity politics twist. The identity politics is what makes it so fucking toxic. We're now living in a time that you aren't even allowed to criticize a multi national corporation as long as they hide behind that stupid fucking pride flag. It's grotesque. But good little boys like you will keep buying your Funko dolls and carrying water for these giant corpos that don't give one shit about you.

Maybe not every thing under the sun has to have garbage politics injected into it. This is a video game forum so of course the focus will be on.....video games.

Palum · Mar 6, 2024

Kiroy said:
Lol 38 studios was a decade ago - there’s been sea changes in all sectors since

Verging on an IOOTI type arguement here…

Narrator: It was, in fact, not OOTI.

Sludig · Mar 6, 2024

Furry said:
This game was objectively bad, and no surprise the modders said fuck it and abandoned ship. I have plenty of money to waste on trash like this... but I don't want to. Probably the last time I spend money on bethesda anything until a release comes out, ages, and I'm still hearing good things. I just cant be bothered with more trash like this.

They have? Shame since that was my only hope to try playing this in a year or so.

Cybsled · Mar 6, 2024

TheBeagle said:
We're now living in a time that you aren't even allowed to criticize a multi national corporation as long as they hide behind that stupid fucking pride flag

If you want blame shit, look up ESG and consulting companies like Sweet Baby Inc

Starfield - Fallout fallout that isn't ES6

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