Supergirl
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
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You could bring in Comet the super horse and have a great love interest.
I Love Ya But You're Strange - That Time Supergirl Made Out With Her Horse. - Comics Should Be Good! @ Comic Book ResourcesComics Should Be Good! @ Comic Book Resources
I Love Ya But You're Strange - That Time Supergirl Made Out With Her Horse. - Comics Should Be Good! @ Comic Book ResourcesComics Should Be Good! @ Comic Book Resources
Caliane
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thinking back on what I said, this is actually one of the main problems with this show.
The girl power, and "I am my own character" mantra, is window dressing, when the show has totally ignored, and thrown away Supergirls entire history and identity, and replaced it entirely with "supermans cousin". That was the insult thrown at the character as a "ms male character". They inexplicably embraced that idea. Presumably to appeal to casuals that do only know her as that.
superman villains, superman friends. Livewire-supermanvillian, Redtornado-Justice league hero, Max lord-JLI hero/JL villian, MM-JL, Cat grant-Superman, Toyman-Superman villian, etc, etc. Non-superman2, Reactron-Superman, Jimmy olsen-superman, etc.
I'm not saying Supergirl's history isn't a mess. with multiple Comets, "her" being 3 different people(kara, matrix, and Linda Danvers)... her spending years in the 35th century(where most of her own identity elements take place...)
Powergirl is an inextricable part of Supergirl. Brainiac 5, as well.
The whole fish out of water, "I had Kryptonian powers for 15 years, but did nothing with them" opening is absurd, frankly. It would have been more faithful to rip off the Flash/Arrow a bit, and have the Legion of Superheroes or one of their villains show up and start it off. 16yr old Kara lands on Earth, gets adopted, and hides, while learning about humanity. 18yr old Kara is gets abducted and taken to the future. has Legion of Superhero adventures. returns to 21st century, right after dead superman, to help a world missing Superman, at 23 or whatever she is now. Can do, Arrow like flashbacks of her "on the island", can have cameos fro her future friends, etc..
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
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The thing is, you can streamline it to "Power Girl" and the whole thing will be fine. Power girl is great. Keep the alternate earth supergirl origins and everything. You don't even have to do window boobs or GIANT tits. Supergirl continuity is the biggest mess outside of Wolverine. It has made zero since, it will always make zero sense. You either streamline it into "Power Girl", or team her up with like barbara gordon/stephanie brown batgirl to make it any good. Even the Justice league cartoon show she was a mess, because of all the CADMUS stuff....which i never care for CADMUS.
Caliane
Avatar of War Slayer
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yep. She definitely has history with Batgirl. Another great way they could have gone.
And yeah, I think I said it before, but didnt bring it back up there.. Supergirl is a teenager. Powergirl is an adult. they are also two very different characters. Not just because they are aged different but because of different lives and experiences. PG is very independent, confidant, and a natural leader. doesn't really know where she fits in with her alt-universe relatives.
Making Supergirl an adult, who never did any of Supergirl's teen stuff, totally changes her character, and throws out her entire history, as noted. hell they have to make jokes about her name.. yeah, makes more sense when shes 16...
And yeah, I think I said it before, but didnt bring it back up there.. Supergirl is a teenager. Powergirl is an adult. they are also two very different characters. Not just because they are aged different but because of different lives and experiences. PG is very independent, confidant, and a natural leader. doesn't really know where she fits in with her alt-universe relatives.
Making Supergirl an adult, who never did any of Supergirl's teen stuff, totally changes her character, and throws out her entire history, as noted. hell they have to make jokes about her name.. yeah, makes more sense when shes 16...
Void
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You realize this is a show for mass appeal, right?
Just checking, because it seems like you guys are more worried about how she fits into the seventeen different versions of Supergirl than how entertaining, and more importantly popular, the show actually is. The vast majority of viewers don't give a fuck if Red Tornado is a Superman villain or a completely new one, because the majority of viewers have no fucking clue who Red Tornado even is. They stayed fairly true to his character (for a TV show), so isn't that good enough? Why does it matter if it isn't a Supergirl specific villain? Arrow stole all of Batman's Ras al Ghul storyline, who cares?
This show is aimed at normal viewers, and trying to attract female viewers on top of that. I'm fairly certain they want to remain somewhat true to the spirit of the comics as well to not piss off fans, but you have to realize we aren't the demographic they are writing most of it for. If you can't let that go, fine, maybe this show isn't for you, but I don't see it becoming more like the comics in the future as opposed to less, so you're probably just going to end up even more bent out of shape.
Just checking, because it seems like you guys are more worried about how she fits into the seventeen different versions of Supergirl than how entertaining, and more importantly popular, the show actually is. The vast majority of viewers don't give a fuck if Red Tornado is a Superman villain or a completely new one, because the majority of viewers have no fucking clue who Red Tornado even is. They stayed fairly true to his character (for a TV show), so isn't that good enough? Why does it matter if it isn't a Supergirl specific villain? Arrow stole all of Batman's Ras al Ghul storyline, who cares?
This show is aimed at normal viewers, and trying to attract female viewers on top of that. I'm fairly certain they want to remain somewhat true to the spirit of the comics as well to not piss off fans, but you have to realize we aren't the demographic they are writing most of it for. If you can't let that go, fine, maybe this show isn't for you, but I don't see it becoming more like the comics in the future as opposed to less, so you're probably just going to end up even more bent out of shape.
Caliane
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Because it completely undermines her, her character, and the empowerment message of the show.
Can you imagine if Wonderwomen series was Wonderwoman: supermans girlfriend? Thats what this show is. If you are casual as hell, you might not care or know better. But it would insulting as hell to WW, and her fans.
this show needs to embrace Supergirls identity, instead of focusing on Supermans. She will NEVER be her own character if she is always living in the shadow of superman. The show will always be hamstrung.
There is no reason a show for casuals, can't be true to the character.
radditsu
Silver Knight of the Realm
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I just like talking about comic things dude. I get that television is a broad mass appeal content generator for people who do not necessarily care about its source material or setting. This supergirl is different from any supergirl, its a wholly different thing. Its comparing Dean Cain Superman to Grant Morrison Superman, that's okay.
I aint even mad bro. I just want to theroycraft and use my brain about what would be "fun" to see in a Supergirl show. So when I say that the show would do well to use Power Girl as a template instead of the Supergirl template, it is just me thinking that they should draw on the character DC has actually written well. Supergirl has been awful since before she "died" in 1986. Outside of like two issues in Batgirl like 5 years ago(where she fought some draculas), There is nothing to pull from that is not a chaotic mess. A supergirl that grows and changes into a Power Girl over the course of 5 seasons seems like a pretty good arc.
I'm a DC comic fan, though not insane like Lyrical but I agree with Vvoid, this is written for a more general appeal, especially towards female viewers. I'm pretty anti-continuity though, too many times what happened in the past bogs down an otherwise great storyline. I think they are trying to walk a fine line with Supergirl.
I haven't read Supergirl since her series with the Legion of Superheros, I'm fine with them throwing out most of the comic stuff because it's TV.
I haven't read Supergirl since her series with the Legion of Superheros, I'm fine with them throwing out most of the comic stuff because it's TV.
Void
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radditsu, I get it, and I know you were more just speculating.
I do agree with you, and even sort of said that there is no reason you can't satisfy both sets of fans. But if they are going to risk alienating one or the other, I'm afraid it won't be the casuals.
First, this show actually is a little bit about her coming out from under Superman's shadow, so you have to give them some time to complete the journey. Second, WW: girlfriend would be a lot more blatant than "Red Tornado is a Superman villain." Everyone would immediately get the girlfriend thing, but only a few know the Red Tornado one. I certainly didn't.
I do agree with you, and even sort of said that there is no reason you can't satisfy both sets of fans. But if they are going to risk alienating one or the other, I'm afraid it won't be the casuals.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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It is simple. Supergirl, to your average person, is either some movie from the 80s, or maybe a cartoon if they watched it, or they are kind of aware she exists, but she ranks low on the specific knowledge meter.
Everyone knows who Superman is. And with all the recent Superman stuff (live action or animated), most of the newer generation will be mostly familiar with that.
When Marvel started all their MCU stuff, most people probably didn't know who Hawkeye was, or Black Widow, or Nick Fury, or Antman, or heck even Iron Man. You have to build awareness. To do that, you either package them with heroes that people do know (ie, lets pair Hawkeye and Black Widow with Captain America and the Hulk!), or you hope that people trust you enough on your other associated products to give it a chance (Antman, GotG), or your ad execs are awesome (Ironman).
To introduce Supergirl, you NEED to bring in Superman, because the audience is thinking the same thing (I know Superman, why the fuck do I need his B-tier cousin?). You address the elephant in the room (which also serves as the initial draw), then you try to tell the audience "Hey, we covered this, now let's show you this new stuff and we hope you'll like it!".
Everyone knows who Superman is. And with all the recent Superman stuff (live action or animated), most of the newer generation will be mostly familiar with that.
When Marvel started all their MCU stuff, most people probably didn't know who Hawkeye was, or Black Widow, or Nick Fury, or Antman, or heck even Iron Man. You have to build awareness. To do that, you either package them with heroes that people do know (ie, lets pair Hawkeye and Black Widow with Captain America and the Hulk!), or you hope that people trust you enough on your other associated products to give it a chance (Antman, GotG), or your ad execs are awesome (Ironman).
To introduce Supergirl, you NEED to bring in Superman, because the audience is thinking the same thing (I know Superman, why the fuck do I need his B-tier cousin?). You address the elephant in the room (which also serves as the initial draw), then you try to tell the audience "Hey, we covered this, now let's show you this new stuff and we hope you'll like it!".
Caliane
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that is the opposite of what Marvel did. they didnt package thor, ironman, etc with anyone. They didn't apologize to anyone for Ironman. Nor Guardians, Antman, etc. They started with stand alone movies.
this is also why jessica jones is more well received. its NOT having her complain about how much better the Avengers are. Not even Daredevil. each are only mentioned once. In fact, again opposite. they CUT all of her ties to Avengers, etc, so they could focus on HER. instead of her being in the shadow of others. Hell ANTMAN is an Avengers founder, but instead they went with a later solo incarnation. Even Flash and Arrow...
Arrow ripped off Batman stories, but has not once mentioned Batman, has not lamented how Batman is better. And Oliver is surrounded by green arrow characters, not Batman ones. even when they did steal Batmans story they used the other daughter instead of using Talia.
Flash pulled in all sorts of justice league characters, is a spin off of Arrow, yet again at the core, is has core Flash characters, and elements.
Casuals DON'T know anything about the character. and thats WHY it makes no sense to change a character to match their lack of knowledge and bigoted stereotype of the character.
I think as a character Supergirl is much more tied to Supes then GA was to Batman, I'd almost say Supergirl is a bit of a sidekick that's evolved but will always be tied to where it originally came from.
That said I think the audience for Supergirl is very different than what the audience is marketed for with Jessica Jones. There may be some overlap but two very different hero types who just happen to be female. I'm not sure I'd say one is more successful then the other in terms of tv shows.
That said I think the audience for Supergirl is very different than what the audience is marketed for with Jessica Jones. There may be some overlap but two very different hero types who just happen to be female. I'm not sure I'd say one is more successful then the other in terms of tv shows.
Void
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Let's not kid ourselves about a couple of things. First, Jessica Jones was well-received (edit: sight unseen I mean, it being actually good is another matter) because it says Marvel, and right now anyone even remotely interested in this type of thing assumes it is worth checking out simply based on that fact. Second, I think we all agree that the beginning of the MCU was a risky proposition and took a combination of things (not least of which was RDJ being so awesome that he drew in non-comic people) to be successful. It just as easily could have failed, and we'd be using them as an example of what not to do instead.
Maybe DC is fucking up with Supergirl and it will fail, and you'll be right. But maybe not. Maybe this show isn't aimed at you as much as Arrow and Flash are. It isn't on The CW (which I love, but plenty still think of as second rate), it is on a "major network", it wants to attract way more female viewers than either of those other shows do, and maybe they think they've learned a few things from doing the other shows. Whether that turns out to be true or not is another matter. But they can't just say, "This is what Marvel did" or "This is what comic nerds want" and call it a day.
Honestly, from the way you guys have described a lot of the different backstories, I'm kind of glad they are going their own direction, because that's some convoluted shit even for comics.
Greyform
Bronze Knight of the Realm
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I agree, I felt the same way the past couple of episodes. Also I would say it is following a parallel development to the Flash, which started getting better when they moved away from the "villain of the week" and went with a more centric story.
