The Astronomy Thread

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Cybsled

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True, but (assuming they exist) finding soft bodies on mars would be different than here on earth.

There's no ongoing water sediment. There's no water erosion. There's no tectonic process. There is no cyclic organic decay. Many of the factors which make it so difficult to find soft bodied fossils on earth aren't applicable. Which is not to say there are no factors.

The first X inches of soil are oxidized. That probably varies depending on location and composition of the soil itself... but ok, so there is SOME erosion. Wind erosion. There is some surface wind sediment. But underneath that thin crust the soil (I assume) has just been basically sitting there for millions of years. As far as we know... just sitting there.

Maybe we'll find thin strata within that soil that followed the water down as they both receded. And maybe not. All I mean is that it's a different sort of thing than fossil hunting on earth. They wouldn't nessicarily have to be actually fossilized. Just preserved.

Edit: It might also be that if life ever did exist there, it existed within those first X inches of soil -- and we're boned from the get go if we try to find it.
This. One of the reasons evidence of life on Earth going back billions of years is hard to find is because of natural erosion, rock "recycling" via subduction, etc. Mars has significantly less issues in terms of samples being destroyed by these natural processes like it would on Earth. However, you still need a mechanism for the specimens to be preserved, such as rapid burial by silt/mud/etc and then the subsequently fossilization.
 

Furry

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Either
1. Matter has always existed, which is an absurdity
2. Matter was created by something, which in turn must have been created by something, ad infinitum, which is an absurdity
3. Matter was created by something that was the cause of itself, or matter is the cause of itself, also an absurdity.

Here's a neat proof from our man Godel for God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6...ological_proof
1-3. The correct answer is to say we dont fucking know. Saying our ignorance is proof or evidence for anything, be it a higher god or not is ridiculously unfounded. I agree that the big bang and many other theories(brane collisions) are total garbage. Your god theory just happens to be even MORE total garbage, its just worse because there is no physical reason to leap to that conclusion. Who created god?

Godel's on god: You do realize that this proof is a philosophical argument? It carries no weight at all scientifically. I could go into a long explanation of why, but there's plenty of information on wiki if you want to read into the subject. A basic summary is that philosophy (modal logic is formalized philosophy) is used to explain the whys. Observables and tangibles can never be created or altered by this philosophy, only explained. Godel's problem is that he creates data (god), based on philosophy. Refer to Godel's proof (ironically) for why this is basically an exercise in imagination.
 

Weaponsfree_sl

shitlord
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Is reading hard for you? I already DIRECTLY stated there is no scientific proof for God. Already.

I didn't create an argument for God, I said a belief in God is no more absurd than thinking that matter always existed--holy shit, I said it's absurd in point 2, dumbass.

There is no logical argument for God!1111 false
There is no scientific argument for God! True
There is no scientific argument against God! True

Just say what you want to say. "I think anyone that believes in God is stupid." That's a stupid thing to say, but that's really what you mean.

I hope that astronomy will finally show everyone that believes in God that God isn't real! Well, things you would find in space aren't incongruous with God. You think the world is 6000 years old? Yeah, that's stupid. Not the same as thinking there is a God.
 

Furry

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Is reading hard for you? I already DIRECTLY stated there is no scientific proof for God. Already.

I didn't create an argument for God, I said a belief in God is no more absurd than thinking that matter always existed--holy shit, I said it's absurd in point 2, dumbass.

There is no logical argument for God!1111 false
There is no scientific argument for God! True
There is no scientific argument against God! True
Well if you agree there's no evidence for god, why do you keep bringing him up.
 

Furry

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I agree with everything you said in exception to the quote above. The big bang theory is far from a total garbage theory with no evidence.
No doubt its at a much higher standard than the theory of god, as it does have evidence to support some of its claims. My reasons for disliking it are better saved for another time, no need to shit up this thread more than jesus.
 

Julian The Apostate

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No doubt its at a much higher standard than the theory of god, as it does have evidence to support some of its claims. My reasons for disliking it are better saved for another time, no need to shit up this thread more than jesus.
Is it a scientific reason for not liking the BBT? If so I think this is the perfect place for the discussion. If it is philosophical reason for not liking the theory it is irrelevant.

Three principles of science from Lawrence Krauss, "Science has been effective at furthering our understanding of nature because the scientific ethos is based on three key principles: (1) follow the evidence wherever it leads; (2) if one has a theory, one needs to be willing to try to prove it wrong as much as one tries to prove that it is right; (3) the ultimate arbiter of truth is experiment, not the comfort one derives from one's a priori beliefs, nor the beauty or elegance one ascribes to one's theoretical models."
 

Burnem Wizfyre

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Not making the case for intelligent design but thanks for the video.

What created matter? What started everything? For some people that's "Nothing." For some people, that's "God."

Intelligent design pro: look at all the order in this chaos! And these specialized things. It must have a creator.
Intelligent design con: order is found in any chaotic system and the things we observe develop.

I am not making either of these arguments. I'm talking about the existence of anything.

Either
1. Matter has always existed, which is an absurdity
2. Matter was created by something, which in turn must have been created by something, ad infinitum, which is an absurdity
3. Matter was created by something that was the cause of itself, or matter is the cause of itself, also an absurdity.

I came into the thread cause someone had a hardon for the idea that discovering something extraterrestrial would finally disprove those durn religious people who STILL believe in God! I'm not religious. It would not be logical to assume any extraterrestrial discovery would disprove God. Viewed in many lights, it might reinforce a belief in God.

From wikipedia: "the fact that there is no conclusive scientific proof of the existence, or non-existence, of God..." There are certainly logical proofs for God, but there are no scientific proofs for God. Those are different things. But in turn, there is no scientific proof for the non-existence of God either.

Here's a neat proof from our man Godel for God.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6...ological_proof
Are you unaware that matter is just energy in another form? I would be willing to wager that there was a scientific fuckton of energy taking place during the big bang.

 

Furry

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Is it a scientific reason for not liking the BBT? If so I think this is the perfect place for the discussion. If it is philosophical reason for not liking the theory it is irrelevant.

Three principles of science from Lawrence Krauss, "Science has been effective at furthering our understanding of nature because the scientific ethos is based on three key principles: (1) follow the evidence wherever it leads; (2) if one has a theory, one needs to be willing to try to prove it wrong as much as one tries to prove that it is right; (3) the ultimate arbiter of truth is experiment, not the comfort one derives from one's a priori beliefs, nor the beauty or elegance one ascribes to one's theoretical models."
BBT is natural philosophy. Hense, all arguments for or against its existance are inherently philosophical in nature. My problem with the BBT is that is almost entirely molded after the fact to match observed data. I would find the case for it more compelling if there were more predictions that were upheld. Instead, a great many of them have been entirely wrong. In any widely applied theory there will predictions upheld, even if the theory is complete bullshit. You could say that this is the scientific process, but the scientific process doesn't apply to philosophy, only to refining our understanding of observable information. So while I will say the BBT is a curious idea, I find the notion that it should be accepted as fact woefully lacking.

And to further illustrate that the BBT is philosophy: Taking your principles of science into account, the big bang theory can not reasonably enter the realm of science yet. Though arguments could be made under the other principals, the 3rd is the most direct. Quite simply, the BBT can not be subjected to experiment. Indeed, the big bang theory itself says the laws of physics changed and the conditions at the moment of the big bang and briefly after are entirely impossible to recreate. Any theory that protects itself with "this happened, but you can't ever prove it!" is limited to philosophical pondering to me.
 

Lenas

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The BBT is in fact being subjected to experiment, though. That's exactly what the Large Hadron Collider is for. It attempts, at some level, to recreate the conditions of the big bang on a small scale.
 

Furry

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The BBT is in fact being subjected to experiment, though. That's exactly what the Large Hadron Collider is for. It attempts, at some level, to recreate the conditions of the big bang on a small scale.
The LHC tests the limits on particle physics- a different branch of science. The rules of physics were different during the early stage of the bbt, so the LHC isnt applicable to that. Of course you could apply the findings of the LHC to the BBT after the rules of physics normalize, but it also applies to everything dealing with physics. To say that its somehow putting the BBT specifically to test is quite misleading.
 

Lenas

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I'm not sure why you think that the limits of particle physics have nothing to do with the big bang. The LHC recreates the conditions of the universeone millionthof a second after the big bang theoretically happened. It's as close as we can currently get, and our understanding from these tests may lead to more advanced testing and understanding of the event itself.
 

Loser Araysar

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i'm no expert but pretty sure rules of physics dont just change randomly. otherwise, they are not really rules.
 

Furry

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i'm no expert but pretty sure rules of physics dont just change randomly. otherwise, they are not really rules.
its the only way to make the BBT work. Its silly, and one of my major problems with the theory.

I'll get off my BBT theory hate streak here with one last statement. You say that we can recreate the conditions of the universe one millionth of a second after the big bang, but all over the universe those conditions and more extreme are constantly happening. Its not unique to the big bang, nor is it some sort of grand achievement that is specifically related to the big bang. The theory is specifically awful due to the part before that millionth of a second (the first billion If memory servers?). There, the laws of physics are different. It cant and never will be subject to experiment (how convenient).
 

Gavinmad

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I blame you for being part of it. I know a LOT of people who believe in that shit and have had zero arguments about it haha. I'm more likely to argue fucking... fucking YuGiOh monster power than validity of creationism.
Dark Magician Girl > Dark Magician
 

fucker_sl

shitlord
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The LHC tests the limits on particle physics- a different branch of science. The rules of physics were different during the early stage of the bbt, so the LHC isnt applicable to that. Of course you could apply the findings of the LHC to the BBT after the rules of physics normalize, but it also applies to everything dealing with physics. To say that its somehow putting the BBT specifically to test is quite misleading.
look...no offense but i think you really have no idea what you are talking about

particle physic IS the branch of the BBT. It is exactly what every single particle accelerator in history have been built for. To recreate in a very small space and in a very brief moment, the conditions that existed in the universe in its very early moments....like 1/100000th of a seconds and early

i have no idea where you have read that the law of physics changed after the big bang. You either misunderstood what he was saying, or the person telling you had no idea what he was talking about

probably this "changing" he was refering to, was the fact that the early universe was so hot and dense that the 4 forces of nature were unified, and the universe was a dense, trillion degree plasma. Sure a condition different from now, but the idea that the laws of physic simply changed is the most stupid misunderstanding you can do

as the universe expanded and cooled atoms formed and thing went on to form the universe we see now. But everything is linked. it's a consequence of changing conditions, not a of the laws of physic. Understanding what was going on in those moments can make us understand what is going on now

a particle accelerator as i said, does exactly that. It create a massive ammount of energy in a very small space. So much energy that in that tiny spot of space the early universe is recreated for a fraction of seconds.

how this could happend if the laws of physic are different from then ? it's the condition of the universe that changed...not the laws of physic