The Big Bad Console Thread - Sway your Station with an Xboner !

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Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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Miniaturized stuff isn't going to surpass full-size stuff, that's just ignoring reality - it might rarely leapfrog it for a brief time for things that have a slow release schedule - but odds of it even getting that close are pretty unlikely.

The only reason phones and the like "haven't been restrained by Moore's law" isn't because of the inability - it's because the tech IS OLD it's just making it power and heat efficient to be in a phone application - if the smartphone concept had been invented a decade sooner I can almost guarantee we'd be at fundamentally the same point, because it's always going to lag behind larger units simply due to the "costs" involved in developing a miniaturized version of things.
 

Joeboo

Molten Core Raider
8,157
140
Technically, most high-end mobile devices are WAY more expensive than consoles though, it's just that most people don't pay that full price due to carrier contract subsidies.

I see no problem with a $700 Galaxy S phone being more powerful than $300-$400 consoles, you are paying a premium for size(and the screen)

Mobiles life cycle is what is going to keep it ahead of consoles. Consoles can't keep releasing only every 7 or 8 years, and then release with mediocre hardware when they do. They're just asking to get killed with that dinosaur-like pace. If consoles keep having an 8 year life cycle, and are only the better piece of technology for the first year or two, they are doomed.
 

Vaclav

Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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You're presuming infinite growth that will surpass larger variants in a miniaturized capacity though - we still don't have PCs that can keep up with some of the Fed supercomputers from 20 years ago yet for full sized machines quite yet...
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
You're making the assumption that all these console/PC games will be released on phones - that hasn't happened yet despite phones being able to run them now. None of computing power in phones matters in the least until there's a real paradigm shift in where games are released.

They're also going to have to overcome a few hurdles like making phones withfarbetter DACs than they do now and figuring out what to do about the storage of 25-50gb games. Plus, these phones are going to have to be built to handle running for hours and hours on end with the gpu/cpu being maxed out. It's very unlikely that regular gaming will make a big shift to phones until Cloud Gaming/Streaming is a much more viable thing.
 

Szlia

Member
6,629
1,375
Consoles can't keep releasing only every 7 or 8 years, and then release with mediocre hardware when they do. They're just asking to get killed with that dinosaur-like pace. If consoles keep having an 8 year life cycle, and are only the better piece of technology for the first year or two, they are doomed.
A huge part of the appeal of consoles for both consumers and publishers is the length of these cycles.
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
It's like you people think that computers are magic beings.
Are you telling me that my PC ISN'T filled with little Video Game Elves?

Mind. Blown.

Applying Moore's Law to consoles is so hilariously misguided. It has absolutely nothing to do with consoles. Consoles are designed and built aroundcost(with a little bit of "what stupid custom hardware can we engineer?" thrown in).

Why the PS4's specs are what they are: Sony had X budget to work with and couldn't build something that would massively put them in the red again via absurd R&D and build costs.

Why the Xbone's specs are what they are: Microsoft had X budget to work with and blew half of it on the Kinect 2.0 camera.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
tl;dr consoles are falling behind the Moore's Law pace, mobile is greatly exceeding the Moore's Law pace, mobile will surpass consoles VERY soon.
I was rounding, but strictly yeah, 18 months. Consoles are built around cost but do roughly correspond to Moore's Law, you just need to take into account when they started development. For instance given 7 years between the 360 and the PS4 that is four cycles of Moore's Law, it ought to be roughly 1,900 GFlops to the 360's 240. PS4 is very close to that.

Mobiles will not surpass consoles. The Apple iPhone 5S is running 76.8 GFlops on its GPU, 240 GFlops on the 360, and 1,840 GFlops on the PS4's GPU. That is not a small difference. Even if the CPUs were close (they aren't), the massive gulf in the difference between the GPUs and the sound hardware is enough to maintain a dramatic difference.

Scaling mobile GPUs to 1000 GFLOPS - Blog - StreamComputing

That is a short, weird, conversation between two industry professionals with a brief explanation of what they meant. They aren't predicting 1,000 GFlops on a mobile device before 2020 based on both some real technical hurdles and some fundamental ones, even optimists aren't expecting it before 2016. Which is halfway to catching up to the PS4. So best-case scenario for mobile devices is they are ~1.4 GFlops on their GPU (400 GFlops behind PS4) when the PS5 comes out. Meaning they won't have caught up to the PS4 before a new product gives them a new thing to catch up to. It will never happen.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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The only way mobile devices will replace consoles is if increased processing power isn't necessary to power AAA games. That's just not in the forseeable future. Game developers are constantly held back by system limitations from being able to match the graphic fidelity (which is almost limitless) they want with the ambition they have for the complexity of the game.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
Yeah, I didn't address that. The question of "Is all this extra power actually used for anything?" And the answer is 4k displays, draw distances, graphical detail, more complex AI, some new technology that we haven't even heard of yet or is in its infancy (Occulus Rift anyone?). I think we're likely to run out of ways we can make silicone faster before we run out of ways developers can use that power.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
Lol so no one agree's that streaming games via the net will be the next step for gaming/consoles? I don't know much about it but am I crazy to think within 10-15 years there will be internet being beamed all around the globe giving people with accounts the ability to connect and stream from anywhere? Surely that is the future for gaming... Does anyone have a bit of knowledge on the chances of a breakthrough happening with internet in the next 10-15 years?
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
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Lol so no one agree's that streaming games via the net will be the next step for gaming/consoles? I don't know much about it but am I crazy to think within 10-15 years there will be internet being beamed all around the globe giving people with accounts the ability to connect and stream from anywhere? Surely that is the future for gaming... Does anyone have a bit of knowledge on the chances of a breakthrough happening with internet in the next 10-15 years?
Please list out your expectations of latency at each step of this network and how the efficacy of a centralized processing hub is more advantageous than localized hardware doing processing a couple feet from the delivery mechanism.

spoiler: A gpu outputting directly to a screen is always going to make more sense than a gpu a state away outputting data to another processor compressing the data to a nic which communicates to another nic over a distributed network that communicates to a decompressing processor that outputs to a screen. Also lag.
 

hodj

Vox Populi Jihadi
<Silver Donator>
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Before mobile gaming can replace real gaming, mobile games are going to have to come up with some better quality titles.

Not saying there aren't good ones out there, but the oceans that are the apple/google app stores are filled to the brim with piss.
 

Alexzander

Golden Knight of the Realm
520
39
That is nuts. I wonder if they'll bother to release systems specifically to China. It sounds like they'll make $0 on Software there. Do they just blackmarket import consoles there (pre-ban lifting) and mod/hack every one of them?

Sounds like there'd at least be a market for hardware.
Hi. I live in China. Let me chime in.

To answer your questions:

When you see the media report consoles are banned here, you know you're dealing with a site that doesn't know what it's talking about. Consoles aren't "illegal", exactly. You can see them for sale like everywhere. They are in stores, malls, and even up on Taobao (China's ebayish site). The only shops that don't sell them are ones that follow the strictest letter of the law (Suning, Amazon.cn, etc). If the government really had a problem with them, they sure as hell wouldn't be as common. There is a giant video game/guitar street in the middle of town where you can find most anything. I saw a used neo geo once.

Since MS doesn't support Xbox live in China, Xbox 360s are almost universally chipped at time of purchase (PSPs/DS'es too). Games are sold roughly the price of blank media + a bit more, just like DVD movies. Sony, on the other hand, does support China access on PSN via HK accounts. So PS3 users that want online don't mod their PS3s, those who don't do.

I've seen quite a few Chinese with totally legal/unmodded PS3s for Street Fighter 4 alone, so I some imagine fans of other genres might as well if online is important to them. Most just play on PC though.
 

sebur

Bronze Squire
1,174
0
Steaming games is absolutely in the talks but the problem is, as someone previously mentioned (I assume we are talking USA here) the infrastructure. USA is pretty well known for having bad internet speeds overall. A good example is the difference in 2 companies locally. One is at&t uverse with its speeds topping out at 45 mbps vs cox cable with its top end being 150 mbps (cox is considered one of the better providers in my area). Just a huge disparity from carrier to carrier. Your average person has no fucking clue what any of that means and quite honestly doesn't care. Now factor in that you don't have 4g everywhere and probably won't for awhile and you begin to realize that the broad scale of streaming you are speaking of is probably pretty far away (this isn't even counting when we start getting in to 4k streaming).
 

Sean_sl

shitlord
4,735
11
Lol so no one agree's that streaming games via the net will be the next step for gaming/consoles? I don't know much about it but am I crazy to think within 10-15 years there will be internet being beamed all around the globe giving people with accounts the ability to connect and stream from anywhere? Surely that is the future for gaming... Does anyone have a bit of knowledge on the chances of a breakthrough happening with internet in the next 10-15 years?
Dude, I said that I agree with you multiple times. I just think it'll be a lonnng time before that happens due to the unfortunate nature of the internet infrastructure and the people who are in control of it. It's also going to need to be a lot better than just "lulz super high speed". It's going to require insanely low latency connections for it to be really viable. And for something like multiplayer FPS? Forget about it, for exactly all the reasons that Tuco posted. You'd basically need to be able to stream shit with 0 latency going both ways to play a shooter on it.
 

The Master

Bronze Squire
2,084
2
Lol so no one agree's that streaming games via the net will be the next step for gaming/consoles? I don't know much about it but am I crazy to think within 10-15 years there will be internet being beamed all around the globe giving people with accounts the ability to connect and stream from anywhere? Surely that is the future for gaming... Does anyone have a bit of knowledge on the chances of a breakthrough happening with internet in the next 10-15 years?
We live in a world where Google FedExes HDDs to move data around because it is faster than uploading/downloading it. Ignoring the latency issue, we are a long ways off from having even modern currently possible infrastructure in place, much less some kind of next-gen infrastructure that would allow HD video+audio streaming for millions of simultaneous users at a quality level comparable to a console. Given that the ISPs are fighting the FCC on this exact issue, we are a long way away from that for practical as well as technical reasons. If it ever happens I wouldn't expect before 16 years, minimum.
 

DMK_sl

shitlord
1,600
0
I see. Thanks to everyone who shed a bit of light on the topic. I was thinking more a long the lines of a new technology. A breakthrough of some sort rather then simply improving upon the systems we have now. It will be pretty crazy when you can get fast net any time anywhere. Thanks again all.


Sean I thought you had only agreed to the idea of companies becoming services rather then product selling. My bad.
 

Cor_sl

shitlord
487
0
I don't think it's indicative of anything that people are doing those things (watching shows/movies, listening to music) on their gaming systems. Including gaming, these are activities that people have always split amongst their free time. The only difference is now they can do all of those things on one box.
That's a fair point.

**snipped**
The main reason why mobile technology has developed so quickly in such a short amount of time is that mobile development has been ignored for years. People are taking the things they learned from desktop/other development and applying it to mobile and making big things happen in a very short amount of time. This rate of development is simply unsustainable forever, and it's going to slow down some time over the next few years.

I don't think we'll see phones and tablets as powerful as the PS4/Xbox One for a long while, but does that really matter? Hardcore gamers, such as those who frequent this board and other internet forums, will obviously care, but what about COD/Fifa/Madden bro who only buys those games and no others? Will he care? I don't think so.

These people are going to have to make a decision: download and play games on the device that's already in their pocket, or shell out $400/?349/400eur for a new device to play games. I think they'll simply reach into their pockets and buy the game there.

That's going to be a big problem. People are willing to buy games now (GTA5/COD/etc.) because they don't have to pay a lot for a console to play the games. There is no barrier to entry. In the future, they will, and I think they're going to have a hard time justifying putting down the cash to buy a dedicated gaming machine.

About the Steam Box, I don't see what could their pathway to success be. The N?1 target audience of Steam is made of people who have a gaming PC and therefor will have very little interest in a Steam Box. So they need to convince non PC gamers to jump on board, but how are they going to do that when they have minimal brand recognition and just about jack shit as exclusive IP (one Half Life game every 15 years, yay!)?
Jack shit as exclusive IP? Wtf? How about Dota2, a game that regularly has 450,000 concurrent players. Or Portal 2, a game that sold millions of copies across multiple devices. Or Left4Dead. Or Team Fortress. Or Counter-Strike, which had over 1.6 million unique players playing it last month.

Anyway..

I think this quote explains a lot -

"The threat right now is that Apple has gained a huge amount of market share, and has a relatively obvious pathway towards entering the living room with their platform," Newell said. "I think that there's a scenario where we see sort of a dumbed down living room platform emerging - I think Apple rolls the console guys really easily. The question is can we make enough progress in the PC space to establish ourselves there, and also figure out better ways of addressing mobile before Apple takes over the living room?"
Gabe Newell: Steam Box's biggest threat isn't consoles, it's Apple | Polygon

Assuming Newell is right, and Apple/Android do make big plays in the gaming world, Valve is probably the company in the best position to serve the audience of dedicated gamers that would be left behind. They'd be able to provide these gamers with a variety of different products at difference pricepoints to match their needs, something Microsoft/Sony are unable to do with their 'one size fits all' approach.

Valve is expecting the console market to bottom out sometime soon. They're simply setting themselves up to pick up the pieces if this were to happen.