The Dallas Cowboys Memorial (2015 Off-Season) Thread

Ambiturner · Aug 21, 2015

joeboo_sl said:
Jerry Jones = Al Davis 2.0

Owners should never be GMs in this day and age. It just doesn't work.

Jerry is a great businessman, and can money hand over fist, but he cannot be the decision maker for a modern day NFL team. It took Al Davis dying to put the Raiders slowly back on the right path, it might take the same to ever get the Cowboys back to consistent Super Bowl contention.

Dallas Cowboys Jerry Jones named Executive of Year by PFWA - Dallas Cowboys Blog - ESPN

Zajeer · Aug 21, 2015

zzeris_sl said:
I disagree with this. Tannehill didn't have the fundamentals down. He was just willing to listen and finally got a good OC and coaches to teach him. He's not some special snowflake(beyond high end talent) but a guy who had the proper environment to learn and the willingness to learn. That is what these teams need.

Redskins...let's change HCs systems, ect over and over. Duh, no success. Alex Smith early, lots of systems and coaches and lots of failure. Same with Cleveland, etc,etc. If you get a new QB, don't change everything up frequently and actually have a good idea of the coach you want and what the synergy of the HC/QB is going to be. Shanahan and RG was only going to work in the right circumstances. Manziel isn't the answer right now and maybe never. You have to groom the, train them, and mold your system to get the best results. Not for a year or 2 for for as long as it takes. I don't understand why you would waste all that time, effort, energy, and money on a higher end draft pick and then not do everything possible to make them successful. If that means two years sitting, then two years it is. Get that backup and find weapons. because RG 3 is wasted picks at this time and will probably always be wasted picks. And it didn't have to be that way. There isn't a mystical formula here.

This might be the homer in me talking, but I'm real hopeful Jameis Winston works out. The Bucs went out and got an offensive coordinator who doesn't suck, and will mostly likely stick around for 2 years, if not longer. So long as the team doesn't shit the bed this year, Lovie Smith will retain his job for at least this year and the next. So Jameis' coaching staff should be relatively stable. The team has good offensive weapons and the biggest weakness is the OL, which might be the main reason Winston fails. But I'm hopeful for once, because like you, I believe stability in coaching contributes a lot to making a rookie QB into a decent/great QB down the line

Ambiturner · Aug 21, 2015

Brahma_sl said:
My point being that Jerry and the Boys constantly do this sort of thing when they get close. It has backfired on them almost every time. From Pacman to Owens. Now Hardy. Your Boys were a bad call away from the NFC championship (I personally think they would have beaten Seattle)...tweak it a bit.

You're being pretty dramatic. Owens dysfunction didn't negatively affect their on the field performance and Pacman was a very low risk move that didn't work out.

I don't see how you could see either of those as "backfiring" unless your definition of that is any player that doesn't finish his career with with them while going to multiple pro-bowls.

zzeris · Aug 21, 2015

Zajeer_sl said:
This might be the homer in me talking, but I'm real hopeful Jameis Winston works out. The Bucs went out and got an offensive coordinator who doesn't suck, and will mostly likely stick around for 2 years, if not longer. So long as the team doesn't shit the bed this year, Lovie Smith will retain his job for at least this year and the next. So Jameis' coaching staff should be relatively stable. The team has good offensive weapons and the biggest weakness is the OL, which might be the main reason Winston fails. But I'm hopeful for once, because like you, I believe stability in coaching contributes a lot to making a rookie QB into a decent/great QB down the line

He has all the tools in the shed. He just has to be a professional and be in the right environment. Plenty of reason for optimism if things work out. I hope he has grown up some though.

Slaythe · Aug 21, 2015

Winston is the most complete QB prospect since Luck (not at this level of prospect not saying that just above anyone else since). His attitude and off the field stuff is definitely scary but his talent potential is high.

Kedwyn · Aug 21, 2015

Slaythe_sl said:
Winston is the most complete QB prospect since Luck (not at this level of prospect not saying that just above anyone else since). His attitude and off the field stuff is definitely scary but his talent potential is high.

LOL.

Winston had issues with consistent play even in college. He is going to get eaten up in the NFL.

Famm · Aug 21, 2015

zzeris_sl said:
I disagree with this. Tannehill didn't have the fundamentals down. He was just willing to listen and finally got a good OC and coaches to teach him. He's not some special snowflake(beyond high end talent) but a guy who had the proper environment to learn and the willingness to learn. That is what these teams need.

Redskins...let's change HCs systems, ect over and over. Duh, no success. Alex Smith early, lots of systems and coaches and lots of failure. Same with Cleveland, etc,etc. If you get a new QB, don't change everything up frequently and actually have a good idea of the coach you want and what the synergy of the HC/QB is going to be. Shanahan and RG was only going to work in the right circumstances. Manziel isn't the answer right now and maybe never. You have to groom the, train them, and mold your system to get the best results. Not for a year or 2 for for as long as it takes. I don't understand why you would waste all that time, effort, energy, and money on a higher end draft pick and then not do everything possible to make them successful. If that means two years sitting, then two years it is. Get that backup and find weapons. because RG 3 is wasted picks at this time and will probably always be wasted picks. And it didn't have to be that way. There isn't a mystical formula here.

Consider also, most teams that are able to draft a QB high are either so bad they had a high pick or are mediocre teams who are managed so poorly that they are willing to spend too much trading up. So in some cases its definitely setting people up to fail putting them on these teams that can't field a good line to run or pass protect, then expecting the QB to work some magic trick in staying alive long enough for someone to be open or finish a route.

A lot of those same teams get stuck in a "win right now" cycle of expectations with the constant changing of guards at coach and in the front office. It takes some seasons to start getting the long term plan clicking. But it seems like the bottom half franchises all just overreact constantly, or the fans do while the cheapass owner just keeps hiring some bargain bin staff to make the dupes think he's trying to improve something.

zzeris · Aug 21, 2015

Famm_sl said:
Consider also, most teams that are able to draft a QB high are either so bad they had a high pick or are mediocre teams who are managed so poorly that they are willing to spend too much trading up. So in some cases its definitely setting people up to fail putting them on these teams that can't field a good line to run or pass protect, then expecting the QB to work some magic trick in staying alive long enough for someone to be open or finish a route.

A lot of those same teams get stuck in a "win right now" cycle of expectations with the constant changing of guards at coach and in the front office. It takes some seasons to start getting the long term plan clicking. But it seems like the bottom half franchises all just overreact constantly, or the fans do while the cheapass owner just keeps hiring some bargain bin staff to make the dupes think he's trying to improve something.

Very true. As you say, their ineptitude creates a cycle of failure where possibly solid QBs can't get past go. Unlike basketball, there is no magical Lebron situation that can alleviate poor coaching and management/ownership. Thank God for basketball, right, Cleveland??!

Foggy · Aug 21, 2015

Ambiturner_sl said:
You're being pretty dramatic. Owens dysfunction didn't negatively affect their on the field performance and Pacman was a very low risk move that didn't work out.

I don't see how you could see either of those as "backfiring" unless your definition of that is any player that doesn't finish his career with with them while going to multiple pro-bowls.

Pretty much. The bad moves have been large contracts to one year wonders or giving up valuable draft picks for marginal talent. Just dumb cowboy hate being dumb. Not to mention Jerrah hasn't been the real GM in several years.

Gilgamel · Aug 21, 2015

Slaythe_sl said:
Winston is the most complete QB prospect since Luck (not at this level of prospect not saying that just above anyone else since). His attitude and off the field stuff is definitely scary but his talent potential is high.

I was not a Mariota fan before we drafted him, at all. I now think he was the far better of the two prospects. I am setting myself up to be disappointed because I think this franchise has finally lucked into an elite player.

moontayle · Aug 21, 2015

Foggy_sl said:
Pretty much. The bad moves have been large contracts to one year wonders or giving up valuable draft picks for marginal talent. Just dumb cowboy hate being dumb. Not to mention Jerrah hasn't been the real GM in several years.

3 years, let's not get ahead of ourselves. He still traded up for Claiborne and if people hadn't talked him out of it, we'd have Manziel on the roster right now. What we have now are people willing to tell him no and not afraid of the consequences of doing so.

jooka · Aug 21, 2015

moontayle_sl said:
3 years, let's not get ahead of ourselves. He still traded up for Claiborne and if people hadn't talked him out of it, we'd have Manziel on the roster right now. What we have now are people willing to tell him no and not afraid of the consequences of doing so.

the weird thing is he could have been right about manziel after sitting behind romo for a few years.

Kedwyn · Aug 21, 2015

zzeris_sl said:
Very true. As you say, their ineptitude creates a cycle of failure where possibly solid QBs can't get past go. Unlike basketball, there is no magical Lebron situation that can alleviate poor coaching and management/ownership. Thank God for basketball, right, Cleveland??!

Well most of them suck, not just the teams. Regardless, QB's get passed around like the high school whore with daddy issues once their initial team's love affair ends with them. Then they go and rot on other teams or sit in backup collecting checks until they get run out of the league.

I'd argue the best position to be paid well and be completely mediocre to suck is the QB position. It is by far the most forgiving position to mediocrity than any other in the league.

Kedwyn · Aug 21, 2015

Gilgamel_sl said:
I was not a Mariota fan before we drafted him, at all. I now think he was the far better of the two prospects. I am setting myself up to be disappointed because I think this franchise has finally lucked into an elite player.

I said that before the draft and I believe it still. He was the better prospect. I don't think he is going to be great or anything (or even be mediocre for that matter) but he was the better selection. Time will tell.

People talking about Manziel because he goes 8 for 18 with a TD against people that will never play in the NFL outside of this preseaon are fucking nuts. The guy blows.

Famm · Aug 21, 2015

Kedwyn_sl said:
I'd argue the best position to be paid well and be completely mediocre to suck is the QB position. It is by far the most forgiving position to mediocrity than any other in the league.

Yeah as a backup. When you're the starter and you suck you're getting your bell rung and everyone hates your ass.

Kedwyn_sl said:
I said that before the draft and I believe it still. He was the better prospect. I don't think he is going to be great or anything (or even be mediocre for that matter) but he was the better selection. Time will tell.

Was there anyone not saying that? Recent Slaythe post with the hopefulness for Winston aside...

Honestly, I really don't know if there were some dumbfuck media whores trying make the case or something, but Winston looks from the outside like JaMarcus 2.0 waiting to happen.

Zajeer · Aug 21, 2015

Famm_sl said:
Was there anyone not saying that? Recent Slaythe post with the hopefulness for Winston aside...

I wasn't arguing Mariota vs Winston. All I'm saying I'm hopeful that Winston possibly can succeed given that he has better offensive weapons and a good OC who will be around for a few years to groom him in a system (compared to say Alex Smith, or other QBs that have failed because of coaching instability)

Famm · Aug 21, 2015

Alex Smith hasn't failed! His teams have failed to recognize his greatness is all. I believe this year Andy will have everything in place for Alex to bring home a division crown for the glorious Chefs.

Zajeer · Aug 21, 2015

Famm_sl said:
Alex Smith hasn't failed! His teams have failed to recognize his greatness is all. I believe this year Andy will have everything in place for Alex to bring home a division crown for the glorious Chefs.

You're right, he hasn't failed, but he was a bust for the first 4 years in the league? He had a different OC every year which hurt his development badly. Today he's probably an average QB, which is an enviable position to be in for half the teams in the league

BrutulTM · Aug 21, 2015

Alex is what he is. A smart, fairly athletic quarterback who is unfortunately unable to throw a football more than 15 yards. He's not going to be winning any super bowls and definitely should not have been a #1 pick, especially not over Aaron Rogers. He hasn't "failed" in the NFL, but he hasn't lived up to what the people who drafted him #1 thought he was at all.

Urlithani · Aug 21, 2015

Gilgamel_sl said:
I was not a Mariota fan before we drafted him, at all. I now think he was the far better of the two prospects. I am setting myself up to be disappointed because I think this franchise has finally lucked into an elite player.

I think Winston will do better sooner, then Mariota will catch up. Their ceiling to me is about the same(another question entirely about how close they get to it), so I think Winston's familiarity playing in an NFL style offense will make people use early results to compare them.

The Dallas Cowboys Memorial (2015 Off-Season) Thread

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