the ecological fallacy and identity politics
- Thread starter Sadre Spinegnawer
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yerm
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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It's close but not the same. With socialism, the programs or needs are met by the government. With UBI, everyone has the means provided, but chooses how to meet them. Capitalism/competition can still exist for both getting more out of that income and/or supplementing it.
That whole the government doesn't run the programs part is frequently it's top selling point.
Edit - note, I don't want either. I just think socialism is absolutely evil and destructive while ubi is merely a bad idea.
Cad
scientia potentia est
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Certainly social welfare but socialism has a meaning and that is citizen or social ownership of the means of production/industry; UBI or social welfare programs in general do not take government control of industry so they are not "socialism". I think it's pretty common to just say anything that involves government is "socialism" but I mean, words have meanings.
Leadsalad
Cis-XYite-Nationalist
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Sigh, ok. But UBI is definitely a socialist concept. And if we are providing a magical amount of money to everyone to meet their "needs", current society will most likely collapse into a socialist nightmare. You've removed incentive and are now at odds with human nature.
How will we provide the means if no one is left to manufacture anything and create the necessary taxable wealth to Robin Hood to the endless hordes of leeches? And what's to stop an electorate from demanding an increase in the definition of what their needs are year after year and being a quickly rising tide of bullshit welfare that swallows an ever growing number of people up into the category of "Fuck working, give me my free Xbox, escalade, and suburban home like the rest of those ubi leeches"?
How will we provide the means if no one is left to manufacture anything and create the necessary taxable wealth to Robin Hood to the endless hordes of leeches? And what's to stop an electorate from demanding an increase in the definition of what their needs are year after year and being a quickly rising tide of bullshit welfare that swallows an ever growing number of people up into the category of "Fuck working, give me my free Xbox, escalade, and suburban home like the rest of those ubi leeches"?
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yerm
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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It is socialistic, and it can kill incentive since basic needs are free. The difference is if you want more than basic income, there is no penalty for it. You get around the rising rate demands issue by tying it to a percent of revenue. Or by proposing it for a post-scarcity with automation future, where it kinda sucks less.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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Thank you for arguing against socialism finally. Glad to finally have you slamming these dumb ideas like UBI.
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A5150Ylee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Now if we can just get him on the 'fat people have a duty to die on socialized healthcare because they are a drain on the system' I will call it mission accomplished.
Lendarios
Trump's Staff
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How did I argued against UBI? I pointed out that UBI will not remove greed, or other elements that will force people to work.
The idea that with UBI people will be home doing nothing makes no sense.
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Palum
what Suineg set it to
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You've never been to a poor inner city neighborhood in the US if you think that's true.
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Lendarios
Trump's Staff
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How much do you think UBI is going to be per month? Escalades are still gonna cost $70k
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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That means there will be ever increasing pushes for more free stuff. It's never going to replace welfare, food stamps, wic, etc.
Lendarios
Trump's Staff
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A5150Ylee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Ya, because people on welfare, food stamps, section 8 housing, ate can manage their finances so well, we should just give them one big check and let them make their own decisions on how to spend it. If I honestly believed all other assistance programs would go away with UBI, I would almost be on board with it. Then I would at least get some of my taxes back to offset the payouts. I do question how much tax you need to collect to give everyone $10k/yr (probably need to collect $15k/yr in taxes to make the $10k payout).
My worthless sister used to get money wired from my parents weekly. They first tried to send her the amount monthly for her expenses, but she blew a months allowance in 4 days, and seemed confused why she could make rent or buy groceries. I assume most (all) of the people on these programs are the same way.
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I don't think UBI, if it actually replaced all other forms of welfare, would increase the numbers of leeches on the system in any significant way. It would mostly be the same people already doing it. We have already have programs in place that allow for anyone that wants to live that kind of life to do so. UBI might make it a little easier but I doubt it would significantly increase the number of people willing to live that bare bones lifestyle.
I really can't think of any serious downsides to replacing all current welfare programs with UBI. I mean it's not like it would actually fix anything or work all that well in our multicultural hellhole of a society but it would at least save us some money.
I really can't think of any serious downsides to replacing all current welfare programs with UBI. I mean it's not like it would actually fix anything or work all that well in our multicultural hellhole of a society but it would at least save us some money.
A5150Ylee
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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True, using a different credit card at the register doesn't change your bad purchasing decisions.