The Elder Scrolls Online

moontayle · Jul 9, 2014

When you spend 9 figures developing a game, then a few hundred thousand subs aren't going to cut it.

Convo · Jul 9, 2014

moontayle_sl said:
When you spend 9 figures developing a game, then a few hundred thousand subs aren't going to cut it.

Pretty much. It's desperation mode. Everything they do here on out has to be overwhelmingly positive. Thier mindset during development doesn't really make me feel optimistic they are capable of that long term. Once folks are gone, it's so hard to get them back.

Erronius · Jul 9, 2014

Blackwulf_sl said:
A lot.

[citation needed]

Blackwulf_sl said:
I mean how much is a lot, though? A few hundred thousand? Still a pretty big business by most people's standards.

Not in 2014 with an MMO based on one of the most recognizable video game IPs of all time and a price tag that, if what I remember hearing was true, ballooned into the 9 figure territory. At that point a few hundred thousand active accounts is only indicative of how badly they've failed, and"by most people's standards"is a worthless argument unless you somehow want to argue that those numbers are"good"by comparing the game to a vegetable stand.

Blackwulf_sl said:
I'm sure they are hoping for millions of console users still. Everything they do to improve the game between now and then will help that prospect.

When is the console release again?

Jackdaddio_sl · Jul 9, 2014

Erronius_sl said:
When is the console release again?

Well the official word was 'end of the year' (Bethesda's vice president of PR and marketing Pete Hines). The unofficial word and what most people seem to think is 2015.

The great thing though is this:

GameSpot_sl said:
"We're not happy about it -- obviously we much rather have the console version out in June," he told CVG. "But it seemed like the right thing to do, and we did spend a little time working with the console folks to try to come up with some kind of a thing so that the folks who couldn't play it could buy the PC version and then add a next-gen console version later for a lot less money. That seemed like something that was worth working on before we announced the delay."

Hines was asked how Bethesda goes about filling the gap it now finds in its release schedule with ESO out of the picture. While the publisher hasn't explicitly set out to release something new in the MMO's place, he pointed to that upgrade plan--buy the PC version by the end of June and you'll be able to get the console version for $20 and carry your progress over to it--as filling that hole in a way. "So maybe that's the answer to your question -- trying to come up with something to say, 'Look, this sucks and we're going to try to do this to [compensate]."

So according to him if you wanted it on console before but couldn't, you can just go ahead buy the buggy, grindy shit on PC now (giggle), and then later on re-buy it again on the console of your choice for 'a lot less money' (he says $20). When it's selling right now for $30, I don't see how $20 is 'a lot less money' to most people six months from now. $5 would be a lot less money.

Either way, it takes some balls to suggest people buy a cocked-up version and trudge through on a computer, only to happily say with a straight face that they can re-purchase the whole experience again almost a year later.

Erronius · Jul 9, 2014

Jackdaddio_sl said:
Well the official word was 'end of the year' (Bethesda's vice president of PR and marketing Pete Hines). The unofficial word and what most people seem to think is 2015.

I was thinking of this Paul Sage interview on June 23rd

The Elder Scrolls Online Interview: GamingBolt.com: Video Game News, Reviews, Previews and Blog

Leonid Melikhov: Sounds good. So the console versions are delayed. Do we have a release date and is it going to happen this year?

Paul D. Sage: (Laughs) - Were really not speculating on when the console release date is going to be at this point.

That left me kind of scratching my head. The PC game already released, but talking about a console release date is speculation? I mean I know the interviewer put him on the spot when he mentioned"console versions are delayed"but at the same time this seems like your usual"it'll come out when it comes out"deflection.

And my favorite comment from that interview:

Leonid Melikhov: Ever since the game's launch, Elder Scrolls Online has received a fair bit of criticism for monthly-subscription. Do you guys have plans to change that sometime in the future?

Paul D. Sage: No, we don't have any plans that I am aware of to change it in the future.You know the business model is what the business model isand it allows us to deliver high level content on regular basis right now. So there are no plans that I am aware of.

Translated:

Leonid Melikhov: Your release was a shitshow, and people left in droves. Many said it wasn't worth a sub. Any plans to copy so many other games when this happened to them and go F2P?

Paul D. Sage: The canned answer is "no" because any other answer would be akin to admitting that we screwed up. So instead I'm going to say"You know the business model is what the business model is"and hope that people stop asking me about it.

Blackwulf · Jul 9, 2014

So, Erronius, what's your point? You saying they shouldn't be trying to adjust the game to fix it's flaws? They shouldn't communicate with their hundreds of thousands (potentially millions) of customers? Maybe they should just say, "ahh fuck it!" and mothball the whole thing? I guarantee they have accountants running the numbers; if it was cheaper to just shut the servers down, they'd probably do that.

Your view of this game is over the top pessimistic. It's adecentgame already, and has a lot of potential with some pretty minor changes. Update 3 is going a long way, and they haven't even touched the shit that I'm excited about (Imperial City PVE/PVP) which I'm hoping is coming update 4 or 5.

You guys seem super worried about their development costs. Don't worry - they'll make their money back, one way or another. I'm sure console sales will help. Which is why I laugh at people who think they'll cancel the console version. Really? You think those bean counters are gonna pass up those box sales? The only way that would happen is if they absolutely couldn't get it to run on consoles, and I'm pretty sure they already have an alpha version going.

Erronius · Jul 9, 2014

Blackwulf_sl said:
So, Erronius, what's your point? You saying they shouldn't be trying to adjust the game to fix it's flaws? They shouldn't communicate with their hundreds of thousands (potentially millions) of customers? Maybe they should just say, "ahh fuck it!" and mothball the whole thing? I guarantee they have accountants running the numbers; if it was cheaper to just shut the servers down, they'd probably do that.

If that's the impression you got from reading my posts then you are one dumb dude.

Blackwulf_sl said:
Your view of this game is over the top pessimistic. It's adecentgame already, and has a lot of potential with some pretty minor changes. Update 3 is going a long way, and they haven't even touched the shit that I'm excited about (Imperial City PVE/PVP) which I'm hoping is coming update 4 or 5.

I'd say that my view is realistic. You say that the game is 'decent', but I had a hard time finding good reviews whenever I've looked. At BEST what I've found are the people who want the game to be good so badly that they actively ignore everything that is wrong with the game, and then go out of their way to defend it in order to keep up the illusion that it's a "good" game. And that's what we've seen time and time again with a veritable shitload of MMOs over the last decade or so. It has mirrored games like WHO and STO who cheered when they sold 1m boxes and then lost players at a prodigious rate afterwards...except we didn't even see the "we sold 1m!" brag posts in regards to TESO, so it might be doing even worse than they did.

Blackwulf_sl said:
You guys seem super worried about their development costs. Don't worry - they'll make their money back, one way or another. I'm sure console sales will help. Which is why I laugh at people who think they'll cancel the console version. Really? You think those bean counters are gonna pass up those box sales? The only way that would happen is if they absolutely couldn't get it to run on consoles, and I'm pretty sure they already have an alpha version going.

We're not worried, and I don't care if they wear monyhats or are forced to shut everything down and panhandle on the street. The discussion in regards to development costs simply serves to illustrate whether or not they're "doing well". Making an MMO for $100 and having 300k subs is vastly different from making an MMO for 100million and having 300k subs.

I don't even know why you brought up "cancel the console version" in response to my post. I said nothing of the sort, so I don't know if you read at a remedial level or what. I asked you "when" the release was not because I think they'll cancel the release (/boggle) but rather because their unwillingness to even give a window of few weeks or one month speaks volumes when it's already July and the holiday shopping season starts in about 4 months. Paul Sage not wanting to "speculate" about a console release date at the end of June when the PC client had been released for 3+ months now is not something that inspires confidence.

The biggest issue whenever an MMO runs into this kind of trouble (and invariably, most do) is one of time. If they have issues pre-release then they never have enough time to fix shit before release hits, then they promise miracle patches post release but rarely if ever do Developers have TIME to get those done before they realize that a year has gone by and now they're even more behind. And this is just one of the things that I think you're deluding yourself on. We called you out on this BS before release and you didn't want to listen, and look at the release. Now you're talking about update 3/4/5 and "fixing flaws" in time for the console release (whenever that is), which exactly follows what I just said. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if when 3/4/5 hits or the console version releases and people roll out a list of criticisms if you instead say"yeah but they're still working on it and when the next expansion hits the game will be awesome!".

Oh, I don't doubt that they'll release a console version. But they won't have time to fix everything before the console versions are released and their sales will likely be lackluster. They might sell 1-2 million but considering the IP that will be a complete failure, especially when you consider how little they'll actually recoup from physical console box sales. Which is also why I don't believe for a second that your belief that the console release will "save" TESO, so to speak. Oh they'll sell boxes, but in the end the game will still stumble along even with console versions and it will be a pale shadow of what it could have or should have been.

Jackdaddio_sl · Jul 9, 2014

Blackwulf_sl said:
So, Erronius, what's your point? You saying they shouldn't be trying to adjust the game to fix it's flaws? They shouldn't communicate with their hundreds of thousands (potentially millions) of customers? Maybe they should just say, "ahh fuck it!" and mothball the whole thing? I guarantee they have accountants running the numbers; if it was cheaper to just shut the servers down, they'd probably do that.

Your view of this game is over the top pessimistic. It's adecentgame already, and has a lot of potential with some pretty minor changes. Update 3 is going a long way, and they haven't even touched the shit that I'm excited about (Imperial City PVE/PVP) which I'm hoping is coming update 4 or 5.

You guys seem super worried about their development costs. Don't worry - they'll make their money back, one way or another. I'm sure console sales will help. Which is why I laugh at people who think they'll cancel the console version. Really? You think those bean counters are gonna pass up those box sales? The only way that would happen is if they absolutely couldn't get it to run on consoles, and I'm pretty sure they already have an alpha version going.

I get your point, and there most certainly will be 'some sales' on consoles.

But you are under some delusion that there are several hundred thousand CONSOLE players just sitting around waiting for a finished version of TESO that they can pay $30-60 for (who knows) and then push a monthly sub on top of that.

Are you by chance a Colorado or Washington resident?

Jackdaddio_sl · Jul 9, 2014

Erronius_sl said:
And this is just one of the things that I think you're deluding yourself on. We called you out on this BS before release and you didn't want to listen, and look at the release. Now you're talking about update 3/4/5 and "fixing flaws" in time for the console release (whenever that is), which exactly follows what I just said. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if when 3/4/5 hits or the console version releases and people roll out a list of criticisms if you instead say"yeah but they're still working on it and when the next expansion hits the game will be awesome!".

C'mon man.

TESO's gonna sell millions more units in console sales and subs along with them, updates months from now will be completely and radically awesome... TESO's future is awesome.

*actual T-Shirt included with every pre-ordered ESO console "Imperial City" edition for an extra $20.

Blackwulf · Jul 9, 2014

Erronius_sl said:
If that's the impression you got from reading my posts then you are one dumb dude.

Awesome argument.

Erronius_sl said:
I don't even know why you brought up "cancel the console version" in response to my post.

It was more a response in general to the shit talkers in this thread. Several have said that there's no way consoles will ever be released. Sorry, I tend to lump you all together in my mind.

Erronius_sl said:
The biggest issue whenever an MMO runs into this kind of trouble (and invariably, most do) is one of time. If they have issues pre-release then they never have enough time to fix shit before release hits, then they promise miracle patches post release but rarely if ever do Developers have TIME to get those done before they realize that a year has gone by and now they're even more behind.

As I've said - the game is already quite good. By the time consoles release in ~6 months, the live version should be quite nice. Do you know a lot of other AAA MMO's headed for the new consoles? I don't.

Erronius_sl said:
And this is just one of the things that I think you're deluding yourself on. We called you out on this BS before release and you didn't want to listen, and look at the release. Now you're talking about update 3/4/5 and "fixing flaws" in time for the console release (whenever that is), which exactly follows what I just said. I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if when 3/4/5 hits or the console version releases and people roll out a list of criticisms if you instead say"yeah but they're still working on it and when the next expansion hits the game will be awesome!".

You didn't call me out on shit. I'm still playing the game and having fun with exactly the same shit I said I liked in beta. So are a LOT of other people. I never said it was perfect, and I'm certainly looking forward to improvements. I'm not retarded; the game clearly can stand to gain from some focus on end-game. The important thing, to me, is that Firor and Co. are talking to us, and telling us what they are working on, and EVERY thing they are working on was something that we, the players, asked for. I don't agree with making veteran areas easier, but LOTS of ES fanboys did.

Erronius_sl said:
Oh they'll sell boxes, but in the end the game will still stumble along even with console versions and it will be a pale shadow of what it could have or should have been.

Yeah, no doubt. If only us armchair devs could release that perfect MMO we all talk about. When's yours coming out, bro? Gimme a break. Unless you want to be playing a tired old MMO (trust me I'm tempted now and then to resub to DAOC), you're either playing this game or some Korean port or Wildstar. I agree - we need more sandbox, and I hope someone actually delivers instead of just talking shit on forums.

Honestly, and I've said this before, I think we're going to see a resurgence in small scale (200 player servers) mud style RPG's based on shit like theRustengine/server. It's just too hard to please everyone (carebears, PVPers, suits, devs, beancounters, etc.) with a massive AAA MMO budget.

Jackdaddio_sl said:
I get your point, and there most certainly will be 'some sales' on consoles.

But you are under some delusion that there areseveral hundred thousand CONSOLE playersjust sitting around waiting for a finished version of TESO that they can pay $30-60 for (who knows) and then push a monthly sub on top of that.
Are you by chance a Colorado or Washington resident?

Skyrim was 20+ million sales. I think ZOS can optimistically hope for 5M+ console SALES. Not sure how many subs they'll get. All little Timmy has to do is swipe that Visa from mommy's purse...

Convo · Jul 9, 2014

ESO doesn't stand a chance on consol... Not if there is a sub involved. No idea the plans on that? People already paying for online acess, I can't see them paying a month sub too for game that's been out and has shitty reviews.

TheYanger · Jul 9, 2014

Blackwulf_sl said:
As I've said - the game is already quite good.

Why do you insist on undermining your own arguments?

Blackwulf_sl said:
A lot. I mean how much is a lot, though? A few hundred thousand? Still a pretty big business by most people's standards. I'm sure they are hoping for millions of console users still. Everything they do to improve the game between now and then will help that prospect.

How dumb of an argument is this? Know what would've helped that prospect a lot more? Not releasing a shit game that has the most toxic word of mouth for an MMO I've ever seen. You literally cannot find a positive ESO thread on the entirety of the internet. That'll sure help! You're basically defending this game as a beta test for the console release, as if we should be grateful for that.

Blackwulf · Jul 9, 2014

Convo_sl said:
ESO doesn't stand a chance on consol... Not if there is a sub involved. No idea the plans on that? People already paying for online acess, I can't see them paying a month sub too for game that's been out and has shitty reviews.

I don't play console, so I might be completely out to lunch on this, but wouldn't it be worth it for a free 30 days to people who aren't sure they want a sub? I mean you can get a lot of hours out of a game in 30 days. Are there that many RPG's on the next gen consoles that fans of Skyrim (20+ million) wouldn't want to at least do the free month?

Also, mark my words, there will be a big marketing push near console release and a lot of positive "reviews" are going to pop up on google's first few hits. Haha.

Blackwulf · Jul 9, 2014

TheYanger_sl said:
Why do you insist on undermining your own arguments?

Let's break it down: What did you experience in the game that made it not good?

Abefroman · Jul 9, 2014

Who the fuck knows how much it will sell. You shouldn't believe anything they have to say after being caught lying about hero engine. According to them the console delay had nothing to do with the state of the game and because of network bullshit

TheYanger · Jul 9, 2014

Blackwulf_sl said:
I don't play console, so I might be completely out to lunch on this, but wouldn't it be worth it for a free 30 days to people who aren't sure they want a sub? I mean you can get a lot of hours out of a game in 30 days. Are there that many RPG's on the next gen consoles that fans of Skyrim (20+ million) wouldn't want to at least do the free month?

Also, mark my words, there will be a big marketing push near console release and a lot of positive "reviews" are going to pop up on google's first few hits. Haha.

HAHA! Good one! You're right, Bethesda is going to start trying to shill the game and fool consumers! Why is this a positive thing again?

Vitality · Jul 9, 2014

Blackwulf_sl said:
Let's break it down: What did you experience in the game that made it not good?

Nameplates

Blackwulf · Jul 9, 2014

Vitality_sl said:
Nameplates

Yeah, me too. This will go a way's to alleviate things though (for PVP recongnition):

Anyway, a lot of speculation going on. We'll have to wait and see how the next few updates look. Quakecon should be interesting. For those of us still interested in playing the game, that is!

Xaxius · Jul 9, 2014

Really nice to see Zenimax adding the things that should have been in at launch. Good stuff.

Clearly hiring all those industry vets to build your MMO really paid off.

Blackwulf · Jul 9, 2014

One more post from me today

It's the PTS notes for update 3:

PTS Patch Notes v1.3.0 - Elder Scrolls Online

Edit: I guess there's a video too:

The Elder Scrolls Online

Golden Squire

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

<WoW Guild Officer>

shitlord

<WoW Guild Officer>

N00b

<WoW Guild Officer>

shitlord

shitlord

N00b

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Bronze Knight of the Realm

N00b

N00b

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider

Bronze Knight of the Realm

ＨＵＳＴＬＥ

N00b

Lord Nagafen Raider

N00b