The Elder Scrolls Online

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,918
6,929
You keep doing this and I don't know why. I did not even talk about anyone's game-style preference. You can love the fuck out of the Elder Scrolls IP, but if you look at what is available to public objectively (and beyond PR/Dev speak), TESO doesn't look that good from where I'm sitting.
As I said, the same can be said of WoWstar, etc. Until you actually play the beta or the game is released then everything is just hype and conjecture. Claiming otherwise is just stupid. You can make educated guesses, based on other factors but mostly those guesses are biased by the player's personal preferences.

I don't decide if a mmo is playable until I have actually played it, with exceptions of course. I just can't stand to look at WoW or Wildstar, hate that kind of art. That doesn't make those games bad, just not what I want to spend time in.

Oh, and not sure if you were referring to me or just players in general, but I have no emotional attachment to the TESO IP. Only played Oblivion a couple hours and was bored. Never played Skyrim. Single player RPG's just don't do anything for me. As for TESO (and other mmos in the works) I'm just an objective bystander waiting for an actual playable game before I make any final judgment.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
27,019
41,355
I know you're just fucking with me, but Scott Hartsman is pretty much the only game developer with a really good track record in the MMORPG genre outside some of the Blizzard people.
Why? I dont understand the fascination with this dude. He came on EQ2 which was already a fail game and and left with it still being fail. Then he made rift, a mediocre wow clone with mediocre numbers relative to any other mmorpg, subscription wise. Fuck, I think SWTOR has more people playing. /shrug
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,829
14,183
How exactly does a project get funding without a concise plan or design document? If a game makes bad design decisions so be it. I just don't understand how these projects are getting off the ground without any type of focus at all. It's like getting funding for a sports stadium without having the land or architectural plans in place before hand. Why is this industry so financially retarded and irresponsible?
Because they do it backwards. First, they need an IP to launch upon or at least enough general interest in for an MMORPG. Second, they look at who has shipped an MMORPG. Then they look to see if that person needs a job or are recruitable. If they interview well (Read: Bullshit well) or have connections they will get hired. Then, in this case, they build their team of buddies in the industry they have made over the years whether they were any good or not. 9 times out of 10, they are not. In this case, as was the case with SWTOR, there is publisher backing with a * Lot * of cash trying to cash in on this. Then the project starts...

Then stops because Matt Firor sees customer backlash from a different launch he copies features from.
Then starts again with a new framework.
Then stops again because that one launches piss poor.
Back to the drawing board of what worked for other games.
Start up again.

By the time it gets to start/stop number 2, the publisher has too much invested and will want to see it through if the idiot they hired can show they can get the title to ship. At this stage, shipping is all that matters. Not even so much financial success any longer. If they ship it, at the very least they can write off the losses. But then it's the job of the mouthpieces to enter a damage control mode to stop bad press which will kill off box sales. At this point, it's all about the units sold. Not even subscriptions, market, future financial success. Enter where TESO is at this moment, and others have known would happen for quite some time. Right now I would venture to say there is about 20% of the onboard crew at ZO that is tired of Firor and Sage's shit and are having difficulty with the fact that they are both lying through their collective asses about this game in press, trying to sell on futures which may or may not ever exist years down the road, or severely blowing features out of proportion the team knows will not work well (1st person for instance) and are having moral issues with their company - causing productivity to suffer further.

If you think this is bad, they are doing the same exact thing down to the process, with Battlecry and Rich Vogel. In fact, Fallout Online will be using the same tech. Which leads me to believe they are whoring out the IP as much as they possibly can because upper management is not conficdent of continued success with the single player RPG.

Either way, it's a mess. But the reason why we continue to see this garbage as consumers is because of the incestuous nature of the genre. These people never leave. They continue to get hired. They continue to try and pull their 2001 PR scapegoat stunts, and the genre never evolves. When new people enter, we see something new. (Like with Kaplan and Araisiabi - with Shane Dabiri as a producer with ZERO experience in the genre - look at how well they did as an organization) Until that happens again, these people will continue to just sink everything they touch.

I ever wonder * why * publishers do not see the lost opportunity cost. Not only in hiring these relics which will give them a mediocre at best product with mediocre to poor results, but also from a stand point of the tail wagging the dog.

In the end, why was someone like Matt Firor hired? It isn't because he cares or even knows anything about the product, the customer base, etc - that is a given knowing he already said this genre is done and will not innovate any longer. Probably knowing full well it will, but he is a talentless hack. What he is good at? Bringing a game from almost vaporware to ship within a 4 month period and then taking full credit for it when it belonged to someone else anyway. They see that, believed he did it, and they continue allowing him to keep pushing out that deadline. Which, they stopped now. Nov 2013. Ship it or else. Now it's time to have Matt Firor hire Rob Denton to get it done for him again.
 

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
7,762
13,044
Honestly? Blizzard has innovated 1000x more during their xpacs than any shit I've seen in any recent MMO. GW2 is probably second after Blizz. Trions and Bioware's (the actual bioware guys) hearts were in the right place I think...

Why don't they just make a fucking game? These people have nary a desire to leave their own mark. Or can't....

The foundation of the biggest mmo out now was laid by a bunch of guys that just liked playing games. Not specialized project vagabonds.
 

Pyksel

Rasterizing . . .
840
284
Because they do it backwards. First, they need an IP to launch upon or at least enough general interest in for an MMORPG. Second, they look at who has shipped an MMORPG. Then they look to see if that person needs a job or are recruitable. If they interview well (Read: Bullshit well) or have connections they will get hired. Then, in this case, they build their team of buddies in the industry they have made over the years whether they were any good or not. 9 times out of 10, they are not. In this case, as was the case with SWTOR, there is publisher backing with a * Lot * of cash trying to cash in on this. Then the project starts...

Then stops because Matt Firor sees customer backlash from a different launch he copies features from.
Then starts again with a new framework.
Then stops again because that one launches piss poor.
Back to the drawing board of what worked for other games.
Start up again.

By the time it gets to start/stop number 2, the publisher has too much invested and will want to see it through if the idiot they hired can show they can get the title to ship. At this stage, shipping is all that matters. Not even so much financial success any longer. If they ship it, at the very least they can write off the losses. But then it's the job of the mouthpieces to enter a damage control mode to stop bad press which will kill off box sales. At this point, it's all about the units sold. Not even subscriptions, market, future financial success. Enter where TESO is at this moment, and others have known would happen for quite some time. Right now I would venture to say there is about 20% of the onboard crew at ZO that is tired of Firor and Sage's shit and are having difficulty with the fact that they are both lying through their collective asses about this game in press, trying to sell on futures which may or may not ever exist years down the road, or severely blowing features out of proportion the team knows will not work well (1st person for instance) and are having moral issues with their company - causing productivity to suffer further.

If you think this is bad, they are doing the same exact thing down to the process, with Battlecry and Rich Vogel. In fact, Fallout Online will be using the same tech. Which leads me to believe they are whoring out the IP as much as they possibly can because upper management is not conficdent of continued success with the single player RPG.

Either way, it's a mess. But the reason why we continue to see this garbage as consumers is because of the incestuous nature of the genre. These people never leave. They continue to get hired. They continue to try and pull their 2001 PR scapegoat stunts, and the genre never evolves. When new people enter, we see something new. (Like with Kaplan and Araisiabi - with Shane Dabiri as a producer with ZERO experience in the genre - look at how well they did as an organization) Until that happens again, these people will continue to just sink everything they touch.

I ever wonder * why * publishers do not see the lost opportunity cost. Not only in hiring these relics which will give them a mediocre at best product with mediocre to poor results, but also from a stand point of the tail wagging the dog.

In the end, why was someone like Matt Firor hired? It isn't because he cares or even knows anything about the product, the customer base, etc - that is a given knowing he already said this genre is done and will not innovate any longer. Probably knowing full well it will, but he is a talentless hack. What he is good at? Bringing a game from almost vaporware to ship within a 4 month period and then taking full credit for it when it belonged to someone else anyway. They see that, believed he did it, and they continue allowing him to keep pushing out that deadline. Which, they stopped now. Nov 2013. Ship it or else. Now it's time to have Matt Firor hire Rob Denton to get it done for him again.
Excellent points and well said. How do you feel about Kickstarter as a venue? I would think that by removing the publisher you can curtail some of the issues seen out of the gate but I don't have enough experience with it to know.
 

Convo

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
8,792
664
I know you're just fucking with me, but Scott Hartsman is pretty much the only game developer with a really good track record in the MMORPG genre outside some of the Blizzard people.
Why don't you just stick your hand in his pants and get it over with...
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
As I said, the same can be said of WoWstar, etc. Until you actually play the beta or the game is released then everything is just hype and conjecture. Claiming otherwise is just stupid. You can make educated guesses, based on other factors but mostly those guesses are biased by the player's personal preferences.

I don't decide if a mmo is playable until I have actually played it, with exceptions of course. I just can't stand to look at WoW or Wildstar, hate that kind of art. That doesn't make those games bad, just not what I want to spend time in.

Oh, and not sure if you were referring to me or just players in general, but I have no emotional attachment to the TESO IP. Only played Oblivion a couple hours and was bored. Never played Skyrim. Single player RPG's just don't do anything for me. As for TESO (and other mmos in the works) I'm just an objective bystander waiting for an actual playable game before I make any final judgment.
Well, we've all been following MMORPG forever on these boards and you should be able to read the tea leaves. These are the same people running these studios that have done things in the past. They have track records. With the lack of any other information, if you take the developer's reputation, what they've shown so far and then cross that with the history of development of these types of games, you can make a very very educated guess.

My point with Wildstar is that beyond whether or not you like the art style (which is subjective), they appear to know what they are doing. They have a product with the appearance of high production value. They appear to be releasing a feature complete game. The developers are not afraid to show people their work and they appear very proud of it. Hell, they were demoing this game 2 years ago at Pax Prime. That tells you something.

That is my only point. Wildstar could suck and be boring and bland, but it looks like a good product if you like a DIKU style game with the typical end game stuff. You can hope all you want about those other games, but there is a dark cloud around them at this stage of their development.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
Why? I dont understand the fascination with this dude. He came on EQ2 which was already a fail game and and left with it still being fail. Then he made rift, a mediocre wow clone with mediocre numbers relative to any other mmorpg, subscription wise. Fuck, I think SWTOR has more people playing. /shrug
Ut probably can speak to this point better than I can, I don't really feel like describing what's wrong with this statement.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,829
14,183
Why? I dont understand the fascination with this dude. He came on EQ2 which was already a fail game and and left with it still being fail. Then he made rift, a mediocre wow clone with mediocre numbers relative to any other mmorpg, subscription wise. Fuck, I think SWTOR has more people playing. /shrug
I think more of it, at least from my point of view, is a customer first appproach and being as transparent as possible with his player base. I know of people that just subscribed to the game and gave them money out of believing in their good will towards their customers. With that said, I would argue that before Hartsman, EQ2 was an absolute mess. Echos of Faydar was a great expansion and actually had me playing through some of it, where as the total of Everquest 2 before that had received about an hour of my time. After, when Brenlo took over, it started flunking out again and the positive strides made when Hartsman was there were sunk. Then it really went downhill after Georgeson showed up.

Rift has always had great customer service, strong player support, decent developers, and did bring in fresh dynamic rift events. They patched more than most MMORPG's and brought in some solid actual content for that subscription revenue. The last time I played was a while ago now, but I got a character to level 50 and they had made some things really fun since I had left prior when it first released. Dungeons didn't have nearly as much trash, Instant Adventures were fun, PvP was good, Rifts for some reason never really got old, and they responded well to customer feedback. I have heard it has gone downhill since the expansion. But that coincides ironially enough with when Hartsman left.

You know I will be the first one to bash the shit out of someone that deserves it, but Hartsman really doesn't. He has done more good than harm, and is better than 99% of the others.

With that said, when compared to others * Outside * of the MMORPG genre, it could be just all of us picking the skinniest of the fat kids. But I would think he would do just as well out of this genre than in it, if anything for his player first approach. Obviously, this speaks to how inherent the top down system works in this industry currently.
 

mkopec

<Gold Donor>
27,019
41,355
The developers are not afraid to show people their work and they appear very proud of it. Hell, they were demoing this game 2 years ago at Pax Prime. That tells you something.
This right here.

Its the same shit with Blizzard and WoW back in the day. If its one thing and one thing only that tells you that it will be decent is them showing the game off rather than hiding behind beta like every other fail project does.
 

Draegan_sl

2 Minutes Hate
10,034
3
I would have to say Rift was a pretty large success given it's small initial investment, if we just consider profit. I have a lot of issues with the development of that game, but it was a quality game overall imo.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
<Gold Donor>
49,519
88,327
This right here.

Its the same shit with Blizzard and WoW back in the day. If its one thing and one thing only that tells you that it will be decent is them showing the game off rather than hiding behind beta like every other fail project does.
Yep. This isn't true at all of single player games, but in MMOs if there isn't extensive open betas with visible end-game content then it's probably going to be a shitshow.
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,918
6,929
Well, we've all been following MMORPG forever on these boards and you should be able to read the tea leaves. These are the same people running these studios that have done things in the past. They have track records. With the lack of any other information, if you take the developer's reputation, what they've shown so far and then cross that with the history of development of these types of games, you can make a very very educated guess.

My point with Wildstar is that beyond whether or not you like the art style (which is subjective), they appear to know what they are doing. They have a product with the appearance of high production value. They appear to be releasing a feature complete game. The developers are not afraid to show people their work and they appear very proud of it. Hell, they were demoing this game 2 years ago at Pax Prime. That tells you something.

That is my only point. Wildstar could suck and be boring and bland, but it looks like a good product if you like a DIKU style game with the typical end game stuff. You can hope all you want about those other games, but there is a dark cloud around them at this stage of their development.
I agree with this. The reason I tend to hold back my final judgements though is the over hyped reactions of most mmo players.

Almost every mmo has the same history for me; fun for two weeks, mildly interesting for two weeks, bored for two weeks, quit. And that is true of most mmo players, plus or minus a couple of weeks. It doesn't matter if the mmo is labeled the second coming of jesus (GW2) or absolute failure (Vanguard). We all tend to play the failures and successes the same amount of time before moving on.

So the hyperbolic failtrain pronouncements and holy jesus fanboys don't sway me much anymore.
 

K13R

Bronze Knight of the Realm
285
9
There was a frist 20 of footage rollin around the net its been taken down from the tube. But I watched and thought how much better my time would be spent masterbating myself raw instead of continuing to watch. The game is JV. But being marketed as all balls
 

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,918
6,929
/shrug

Yeah, just can't get worked up by that kind of stuff.

I'll probably buy TESO and probably only last 6 weeks, just like all the other mmos, and have no regrets. Mmos are cheap entertainment. Much more bang for your buck than a single player game.

Am I the worst kind of offender for supporting "bad" mmo's when they launch? Probably, but for whatever reason I prefer even bad mmo's over playing most single player games.

The only time I ever felt ripped off by a mmo was the Star Trek launch. But from what I hear it's much better now, so even it's worth a second look.
 

Abefroman

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
12,597
11,941
/shrug

Yeah, just can't get worked up by that kind of stuff.

I'll probably buy TESO and probably only last 6 weeks, just like all the other mmos, and have no regrets. Mmos are cheap entertainment. Much more bang for your buck than a single player game.

Am I the worst kind of offender for supporting "bad" mmo's when they launch? Probably, but for whatever reason I prefer even bad mmo's over playing most single player games.

The only time I ever felt ripped off by a mmo was the Star Trek launch. But from what I hear it's much better now, so even it's worth a second look.
Let's face it, all the bitching and arguing that we all do here really is just a distraction. The majority of us buy every damn mmo anyway because we are a bunch of addicts. No matter how bad a game is, you can have fun in that first month just from that new MMO smell.
 

Blackwulf

N00b
999
18
Let's face it, all the bitching and arguing that we all do here really is just a distraction. The majority of us buy every damn mmo anyway because we are a bunch of addicts. No matter how bad a game is, you can have fun in that first month just from that new MMO smell.
This is true. Also people on forums like this are a pretty big minority compared to the hordes of ES fans that are gonna snatch this up at Walmart. Not saying this is a good thing, but if you think this game's sales are going to hurt Bethesda (as some of you have intimated) you are more delusional than I am.
 

Utnayan

F16 patrolling Rajaah until he plays DS3
<Gold Donor>
16,829
14,183
This is true. Also people on forums like this are a pretty big minority compared to the hordes of ES fans that are gonna snatch this up at Walmart. Not saying this is a good thing, but if you think this game's sales are going to hurt Bethesda (as some of you have intimated) you are more delusional than I am.
What's funny is as the same management folks say the people on the forums are a minority, they hire shills and have employees post nothing but great comments in disguise as normal posters.

That and I can guarantee you IP infractions exist. All it takes is one shitty game to down a franchise if casual players who don't know any better think Elder Scrolls Online will be just like an Elder Scrolls game. So these people behind the games cannot have their cake and eat it too. All you have to do is look to Medal of Honor to see how an IP gets killed after one horrible release (Rising Sun) before no one cares about the name anymore -- That's all the mass market remembers - and that is also why it is with good reason Bethesda doesn't want their IP tainted. You wouldn't either, if you sold millions and millions of copies and had job security with DLC and sequels while continuing to do it right.

If you cruise around the forum comments, what is more concerning, is a lot of people associate this game with Bethesda and do not know the difference between Zenimax Online and Bethesda. They see Elder Scrolls, associate it with Bethesda, and if it sucks, I can guarantee you a hit in future IP sales. Hopefully not enough to matter. But to think that doesn't exist isn't very correct. I can almost assure you Sim City's IP is completely fucked now. And all it took was Sim City 5 to do so. Unfortunately, the results of a piss launch isn't seen until the next in the IP comes along, and by then, the scapegoats come out. "Sim building is a dead market. We must move on" (Which we all know wouldn't be true)

Also, this was the case back in 2001 - when the internet was still relatively new to the world, there were less devices that supported access, and if they did have access, they probably didn't know how to navigate to an internet forum anyway. This is 2013 now. Someone needs to tell the relics that this is no longer the case. Not only can word of mouth kill a company, but via the internet, social media and about 50 other communication vehicles across the web combined with countless devices to use to access forums/web ensure it. Otherwise they wouldn't be so concerned about damage control either.

This isn't aimed at you Blackwulf, but I love it when I hear that. It's the oldest scapegoat in the books for people like Firor. "Don't worry... they are just the jaded minority who love to bitch - give me 9 more months and $40 million please because I done fucked up again"
 

Tropics_sl

shitlord
11
0
Just took it down. It looks like WoW did pre-alpha. They need to delay release by a year if they want a successful MMO.
Supposedly the Skyrim team was just all moved to a new/differernt project.

About the only thing that would save TESO is if that "new" project is "Save TESO" where the Skyrim team goes in, takes total control, and does their best to make TESO play way more like a huge world multiplayer Skyrim.

That beta footage looks terrible, the character motions suck, the un-aimed spellcasting was exceptionally lame compared to Skyrim's aimed spell casting. The possibilites for combat in a MMO that features aimed spell casting, arrow shooting, and swordplay like Skyrim are huge for challenging single player content and raids alike.

The NPC interaction windows were terrible for both quest gathering and buying/selling and should be more like Skyrim which was simple, effective, and would work just fine in a MMO.

The character motion was all wrong, WAY too fast and had the "floating" moonwalk style weightless running that completely obliterates the feel of the game. They need to fix that and make the character move slower and have an actual impression of mass.

If this game stays like the video shows then I will stay playing and modding Skyrim and pass on the MMO, and that is sad because a proper TES MMO that was pretty much a huge TES world that plays much like a multiplayer version of Skyrim would have hooked me in for years.

About the only thing that can save this game now is the main bosses in charge of Bethesda saving this IP and potential that a TES MMO has and sending the bulk of the Skyrim team in to help/take over in fixing this game.

Postpone the release until it is done right, noone wants this thing released early like that, noone will play it and it will be another wasted project 6 months after release. TES is WAY too valuable of a IP to screw up like that, no game since WOW has had this much of a chance of being huge if it is done right.