The Queen's Gambit

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Khane

Khane

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They show her doing nothing but playing chess, going over games, and completely obsessing over it. She was obsessed with chess. I mean, she plays games in her head while lying in bed. It was all she ever thought about and all she ever did (well other than chemically enhancing herself). What are you guys saying about it just being a gift with no effort?
 
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Vandyn

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Khane said:
They show her doing nothing but playing chess, going over games, and completely obsessing over it. She was obsessed with chess. I mean, she plays games in her head while lying in bed. It was all she ever thought about and all she ever did (well other than chemically enhancing herself). What are you guys saying about it just being a gift with no effort?
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Yea I thought they made the point numerous times that she was so consumed by it. I think even the guy that moves in with her for a bit says as much, basically saying in order to be even close to the level that she was you have to have to live chess 24/7 which he didn't want to do anymore.
 
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A

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Yep. Think about that scene where he brought a bunch of chess books for her to read, but she's already read all but like one of them.

She was definitely an intuition player, but she still studied the game a lot. She seemed to fail when she relied too much on the technical "known" aspects of the game, but she also lost to super obvious things that most chess players would have known to avoid. I took the entire process as her learning how to combine intuition with knowledge, but ultimately embracing her intuition when the knowledge led to a stalemate scenario to lead her to the win against the Russian.
 
Attog

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I don't think the etiquette coach was a tranny, she just had man-hands.

 
Attog

Attog

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OK fair enough but he was playing a female. Just take a look at Elliot Page. I think.
 
Ravishing

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Khane said:
They show her doing nothing but playing chess, going over games, and completely obsessing over it. She was obsessed with chess. I mean, she plays games in her head while lying in bed. It was all she ever thought about and all she ever did (well other than chemically enhancing herself). What are you guys saying about it just being a gift with no effort?
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All of those people were obsessed with it though, it doesn't give her an edge and her moodiness is a huge fault. The reasons for her chess ability just seemed really strained and unbelievable. Any top tier professional chess player has crazy ability to think way ahead. I don't know what made her special other then the drugs giving her super clarity or something

I love chess movies. I still think "The Search for Bobby Fischer " is likely the best chess movie. It actually goes over in depth skill components of the game, thinking 25+ moves ahead, etc. This show makes you think she plays on the fly, doesn't do a good job explaining how many moves ahead she's thinking, etc.


But I still thoroughly enjoyed it.
 
Khane

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This show definitely does not convey anything about her "playing on the fly". The beginning episodes of the show are all about the janitor showing her actual chess openings when they get the chance to play and her reading every book in existence on chess strategies. Did you watch this show as background noise while you were cleaning your house or something?
 
chaos

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The drugs she took were benzos, the pills didn't do the work for her, she was just an addict and benzos are good for anxiety. They showed her working her ass off to the detriment of almost every other aspect of her life, I dont know what more they could have done to get that across.
 
Ravishing

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Khane said:
This show definitely does not convey anything about her "playing on the fly". The beginning episodes of the show are all about the janitor showing her actual chess openings when they get the chance to play and her reading every book in existence on chess strategies. Did you watch this show as background noise while you were cleaning your house or something?
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Did you sleep through the numerous parts where they strictly say she's an "intuitive player".

The show was so confused on how to make her appear as a Prodigy that they literally threw everything at you. Drugs, intuition, obsession. The problem i have is it just doesn't come across as believable to me at all.
 
Vandyn

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She wasn't just addicted to drugs, she was addicted to chess to the detriment of everything else. She purposely developed very little emotions because her only emotions was toward the game. When her adopted mother dies it's just another footnote in her life, nothing more. I can believe that someone becomes so consumed by something (in this case chess) that you can become really good at it (even great) but at what cost?
 
Khane

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Ravishing said:
Did you sleep through the numerous parts where they strictly say she's an "intuitive player".

The show was so confused on how to make her appear as a Prodigy that they literally threw everything at you. Drugs, intuition, obsession. The problem i have is it just doesn't come across as believable to me at all.
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I think you're problem is you're struggling with what the word "intuition" means.

What exactly would being a "strictly intuitive player" even entail?

They show her working harder than literally everyone else around her and they show her failing multiple times while she struggles with her own personal demons and her inability to grow up. She eventually overcomes these problems, and pushes past her previous limitations with the help of everyone around her. It really does feel like you just fast forwarded through huge chunks of episodes. There is an enormous amount of character development and growth throughout the series.
 
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Ravishing

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You're defending this pretty hard, you're not going to convince me it was absolutely 100% believable. It just wasn't for me.
I really loved the artistic direction and the acting was really good.
I can't get behind the fact she was more of a prodigy than the others. Nothing in the show convinced me that the actions she took would make her a better chess player than the others.
At that level margins are ultra slim. There's no way she's playing that recklessly & aggressively and still outsmarting the rest. It just doesn't happen like that.
Again, the quick pace of play is meant to imply how "intuitive" she is, I don't buy it. It makes no sense when you're playing a game where each player is thinking 20+ moves ahead.
 
Khane

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It's fine if you didn't find it believable. However, the things you're bringing up were covered explicitly and rather well in the show. It seems it's more of a case of you thinking prodigious talent is nonsense completely and not really anything to do with the show.

If what you were saying was true, about her character, how do you explain Benny and her entire relationship with him? From the time they first met, and he kicked her ass in speed chess, to when they went back to NY and he showed her she actually wasnt very good at thinking on her feet or adapting to unforeseen moves. You say they showed every match being played at a blistering pace but if you pay attention to it, what was happening on screen during her regular matches wasnt actually happening quickly. Especially the matches at the end in Russia. There is some subtle nuance there but they do show the passing of time as more than just a speed chess style back and forth, even if the players in the matches were clicking their buttons in quick succession to save screen time.

She never played recklessly, she always played within the confines of her expectations based on what she had studied about the game. She was better than everyone because she had better intuition, as you've said, and could think further ahead and predict her opponent better... until she lost and was shown how ridgid her playstyle actually was. Playing recklessly, as a prodigy, would actually be counter-intuitive. I think you missed some of these details.
 
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Nidhogg

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Gotta agree with Khane, not sure what else they could have done to show you her innate gifts coupled with rigorous study led to her success. They show she can see and predict moves ahead by way of a rapidly rearranging chess board on the ceiling.

Comparatively to SFBF they show Josh having the innate gifts (seeing and predicting moves far ahead) as he grows up and beats his dad, tempered with experience from 2 walks of life (rigid form coach and instinctive hustler coach) as he approaches his final opponent.

Both of these shows depict the same thing, albeit with differing art styles and obviously one being a bit dated, but the critique of them not making her "believable" seems shallow considering you are perfectly happy with how Waitzskin was portrayed.

Just my 2c, both are excellent
 
Chris

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Meanwhile in an 80s movie you can do a montage and be an expert at anything.

Untealistic bit for me was that they only showed her losing like 3 times and every game was best of 1, but that's the price you pay to make a well paced TV show.

If you want a documentary where we have 100 episodes of her practicing chess, fuck you.
 
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Ravishing

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I think what I was looking for was a bit more struggle.
Losing at Speed chess and losing to the Russian twice didn't feel impactful because there were excuses behind those losses.
The 2nd loss to the Russian she was hung over. And speed chess wasn't her forte, then she became a god at it and was beating everyone at it at the same time.
I think if they highlighted 1 super power instead of throwing 3-4 at you it would have sold me better.
The only sticking point I have is her beating the Russians, and Benny to an extent.
Benny is also very obsessed with the game and has excelled at it his entire life, and he's not even that old, unlike the Russian dude who might be losing a little bit of mental in his older age.

If she beats everyone else in this movie 99.9% of the time, great, nobody else was portrayed as being a Master tier player. But handing Benny his ass over and over at speed chess while also playing against others, really? And losing to the Russian just felt fake/forced. They also built in an excuse there, which is a bit of disservice, in the news interview they question his age/mental sowing some doubt about his capabilities. So if he does have any weakness, now you're lead to believe maybe he was just off on his game for the day. Poor execution all around imo.
 
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chaos

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I think the show made the tiers of players pretty clear as well, and Benny, while amazing, wasn't in the same tier as Borgov or whatshername. The story is about her, throughout she encounters different kinds of players and uses intuition, skill, luck, drugs, and brute force to beat them. I never got any kind of indication that Borgov was just off his game, she worked her ass off, got herself sober, and reworked the way the entire American chess team approached the competition in order to finally beat him once. They use the "intuition" argument to show her growth from being uncertain of herself to being in control.

And how could her loss have felt fake? it's foreshadowed from the moment she finds out she's good at chess, and they talk at length about what mastery means and what drives people to continuously improve even when they are at the peak, and how victory can be hollow.
 
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Arden

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I'll be the contrarian and say I only thought it was "ok." It was sleek and slick. Entertaining just for the great visuals and stylish period set pieces. People have compared it to Mad Men regarding look/feel and I'd agree. They did a good job of moving things along, which made it easy to watch.

The problem was that it lacked the substance and gravity of a show like Mad Men. Part of it was that they didn't devote much time or effort to character development. I'll be honest, to me it seemed to like the director was far more interested in the actress playing the character than in the character herself.

They made kind of a cursory stab at character development with the character's background and substance abuse issues, but they didn't really commit to it and it showed. I honestly never really felt like I had a firm grasp on the character anyway. She kind of flitted back and forth between some kind of autistic chess savant and a savvy socialite. They wanted the character to be everything all at once, and that type of thing makes weak characters. Again, I the show was more than exposé for the actress than a story about an interesting character.

Not terrible, but kind of like Chinese food. It tastes good going down, but you still feel kind of empty a few hours later.
 
chaos

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Arden said:
I'll be the contrarian and say I only thought it was "ok." It was sleek and slick. Entertaining just for the great visuals and stylish period set pieces. People have compared it to Mad Men regarding look/feel and I'd agree. They did a good job of moving things along, which made it easy to watch.

The problem was that it lacked the substance and gravity of a show like Mad Men. Part of it was that they didn't devote much time or effort to character development. I'll be honest, to me it seemed to like the director was far more interested in the actress playing the character than in the character herself.

They made kind of a cursory stab at character development with the character's background and substance abuse issues, but they didn't really commit to it and it showed. I honestly never really felt like I had a firm grasp on the character anyway. She kind of flitted back and forth between some kind of autistic chess savant and a savvy socialite. They wanted the character to be everything all at once, and that type of thing makes weak characters. Again, I the show was more than exposé for the actress than a story about an interesting character.

Not terrible, but kind of like Chinese food. It tastes good going down, but you still feel kind of empty a few hours later.
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I felt the series was good for what it is and definitely enjoyed it. But I agree with your criticism. She wasn't developed enough, at no point did you feel like maybe she won't pull out of this and defeat Borgov, it was always determined. I'd say that making it longer might help and give the room needed for the characters to really grow, but fuck all that, there's enough tv as is, mini-series are great.

But all the characters aren't like that. I feel like her mom is a fully realized character in the short time we see her.
 
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