The Trayvon Trial

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Siddar

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gunther_sl said:
From what I've heard through media it appears Trayvon stopped beating Zimmerman before the male neighbor opened his porch door and witnessed Trayvon on top of Zimmerman with the latter shouting for help (the neighbor subsequently told them he was calling the police). If Trayvon was not beating Zimmerman after that incident and was only pinning Zimmerman down on the ground I think Zimmerman should be guilty of murder since the threat which would justify use of deadly force had passed. Also since a witness (the neighbor) had seen Trayvon I think it's unlikely Trayvon would afterwards try to beat to death Zimmerman at the apartment complex where his dad lived. If Zimmerman had shot Trayvon during the initial flury you can argue self defense, but once the attack had ceased and Trayvon had Zimmerman pinned waiting for the police I would consider that murder. However we have to know the circumstances when Zimmerman fired the gun and there might not be a witness to that.
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The problem is that media has created the 12 year old innocent Trayvon meme. So changing that to a two idiots in bar fight meme with both being crimnaly at fault causes problems. Prosecution overcharging in this case is also likely to allow Zimmerman to walk free.
 
Tanoomba

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Himeo_sl said:
The alternative is to have society without people who attack you because they don't like you. Our system of law isn't perfect, but we do have self-defense. I have no problem with self-defense laws and concealed carry permits. Do you?
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Famm_sl said:
The vast majority of those fights also end up being under a minute of swinging and grappling that end up broken up by friends or bouncers/security and shit. They don't tend to escalate into someone's head being slammed into the sidewalk, and in the event they do its more often a beatdown 5-on-1 sort of scenario....and people are much more likely to get charged with something.

Most of the shootings I read about are more like verbal altercations where one side pulls a weapon, or if there was a fight they leave the scene and return with the weapon. Which is very different than an actual self defense situation.
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All right, so just so we're clear here, you guys are totally OK with a legal loophole that allows you to kill anybody willing to fight with you, as long as you don't break any laws to get that fight going.
I just wanted to clear that up. I'm not OK with that, which explains our differing views of this case.

I honestly wonder though, being possibly the person most secure with my masculinity and thus least likely to exchange punches with someone, where your individual lines are drawn. What would someone have to do or tell you to get you to throw a punch? For some, maybe a filthy comment about your mother would be enough. For others, perhaps a direct attack on your masculinity might do the trick. Racial slurs, crude gestures, childish mocking, who knows? I do doubt, however, thatallof you are immune to throwing a punch at someone. Heck, what if you didn't throw the first punch? Certainly, if someone hits you you're going to hit back, right? Guess what? If nobody's there to see how the fight starts and you happen to be a better fighter than your aggressor, better hope he doesn't have a gun 'cuz it's lights out for you and no consequences for him. Just to be clear, you guys are OK with this, right?
 
Vandyn

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Tanoomba_sl said:
All right, so just so we're clear here, you guys are totally OK with a legal loophole that allows you to kill anybody willing to fight with you, as long as you don't break any laws to get that fight going.
I just wanted to clear that up. I'm not OK with that, which explains our differing views of this case.

I honestly wonder though, being possibly the person most secure with my masculinity and thus least likely to exchange punches with someone, where your individual lines are drawn. What would someone have to do or tell you to get you to throw a punch? For some, maybe a filthy comment about your mother would be enough. For others, perhaps a direct attack on your masculinity might do the trick. Racial slurs, crude gestures, childish mocking, who knows? I do doubt, however, thatallof you are immune to throwing a punch at someone. Heck, what if you didn't throw the first punch? Certainly, if someone hits you you're going to hit back, right? Guess what? If nobody's there to see how the fight starts and you happen to be a better fighter than your aggressor, better hope he doesn't have a gun 'cuz it's lights out for you and no consequences for him. Just to be clear, you guys are OK with this, right?
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Dude, if someone wants to fight you and starts throwing punches, that's not a legal loophole, that's self defense. At that point you can and should do anything to protect yourself. This guy was on top of him wailing on him, Zimmerman is yelling for help for what seems like fucking eternity (40+ seconds) and you expect him to just sit there and take it when he actually has means to do something about it?
 
Himeo

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Tanoomba_sl said:
All right, so just so we're clear here, you guys are totally OK with a legal loophole that allows you to kill anybody willing to fight with you, as long as you don't break any laws to get that fight going.
I just wanted to clear that up. I'm not OK with that, which explains our differing views of this case.

I honestly wonder though, being possibly the person most secure with my masculinity and thus least likely to exchange punches with someone, where your individual lines are drawn. What would someone have to do or tell you to get you to throw a punch? For some, maybe a filthy comment about your mother would be enough. For others, perhaps a direct attack on your masculinity might do the trick. Racial slurs, crude gestures, childish mocking, who knows? I do doubt, however, thatallof you are immune to throwing a punch at someone. Heck, what if you didn't throw the first punch? Certainly, if someone hits you you're going to hit back, right? Guess what? If nobody's there to see how the fight starts and you happen to be a better fighter than your aggressor, better hope he doesn't have a gun 'cuz it's lights out for you and no consequences for him. Just to be clear, you guys are OK with this, right?
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There is nothing you can say to me that would make me attack you, beyond threatening me with violence or attacking one of my friends and family. I'm proud to live in a civilized society with concealed carry laws and self-defense.
 
Famm

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Tanoomba_sl said:
All right, so just so we're clear here, you guys are totally OK with a legal loophole that allows you to kill anybody willing to fight with you, as long as you don't break any laws to get that fight going.
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We've totally been telling you that this only exists in your very soft head.

Unquoted part of your post is more of your typical over dramatic red herrings and appeals to emotion.
 
Noble Savage

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Tanoomba_sl said:
All right, so just so we're clear here, you guys are totally OK with a legal loophole that allows you to kill anybody willing to fight with you, as long as you don't break any laws to get that fight going.
I just wanted to clear that up. I'm not OK with that, which explains our differing views of this case.

I honestly wonder though, being possibly the person most secure with my masculinity and thus least likely to exchange punches with someone, where your individual lines are drawn. What would someone have to do or tell you to get you to throw a punch? For some, maybe a filthy comment about your mother would be enough. For others, perhaps a direct attack on your masculinity might do the trick. Racial slurs, crude gestures, childish mocking, who knows? I do doubt, however, thatallof you are immune to throwing a punch at someone. Heck, what if you didn't throw the first punch? Certainly, if someone hits you you're going to hit back, right? Guess what? If nobody's there to see how the fight starts and you happen to be a better fighter than your aggressor, better hope he doesn't have a gun 'cuz it's lights out for you and no consequences for him. Just to be clear, you guys are OK with this, right?
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I don't think anyone is OK with it because its such a fucking stretch of logic to even think that someone would go out there and do this. They would have to provoke a fight, not back down when it escalates to physical violence and then shoot the other bastard claiming self defense. I don't think anyone, including the legal system, would say that's self defense.

However the flaw in your argument is that this was not a mutually agreed upon fight where both persons want to fight. When one of the persons involved is screaming for help for 40 seconds that's something much different then what you are describing.

Either you are a complete moron or George Zimmerman is Keyser fucking Soze with being able to pull off pre-meditated murder and get away with it.
 
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Because it's entirely impossible that Zimmerman provoked the fight and then realized he'd bit off more than he could chew and ended up screaming like a little girl for help until he remembered he had a gun.
 
Noble Savage

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Duppin_sl said:
Because it's entirely impossible that Zimmerman provoked the fight and then realized he'd bit off more than he could chew and ended up screaming like a little girl for help until he remembered he had a gun.
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I doubt Zimmerman was looking for a fight or even a confrontation. Trayvon was probably agitated that Zimmerman was following him and decided to confront him. Things escalated from there.

The way you guys are reaching so fucking hard to make it seem like Zimmerman was out there deathwish style while completely ignoring the information that's come out is pretty staggering.
 
Tanoomba

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Vandyn_sl said:
Dude, if someone wants to fight you and starts throwing punches, that's not a legal loophole, that's self defense. At that point you can and should do anything to protect yourself. This guy was on top of him wailing on him, Zimmerman is yelling for help for what seems like fucking eternity (40+ seconds) and you expect him to just sit there and take it when he actually has means to do something about it?
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I never said that. I'm saying it's not very difficult to put yourself in a situation that will require self-defense. Legally, even. And if the other person hits you hard enough, you can legally shoot and kill them. That's all I'm saying.


Famm_sl said:
We've totally been telling you that this only exists in your very soft head.

Unquoted part of your post is more of your typical over dramatic red herrings and appeals to emotion.
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What do you mean, it only exists in my head? I'm talking about the law here, which exists in the real world. Legally, you can put yourself in what you believe to be a life-or-death situation and shoot and kill someone. That's the law.


noble savage_sl said:
I don't think anyone is OK with it because its such a fucking stretch of logic to even think that someone would go out there and do this. They would have to provoke a fight, not back down when it escalates to physical violence and then shoot the other bastard claiming self defense. I don't think anyone, including the legal system, would say that's self defense.
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That's a pretty good description of what seems to have happened. Now, you can claim that Zimmerman didn't do anything legally wrong by following and questioning Martin, or you can claim that Martin would not have been justified anyway in hitting Zimmerman (which we have no proof was how the fight started anyway). I'm just saying Zimmerman has some responsibility in what happened, even if he didn't break a law for things to escalate as they did.


noble savage_sl said:
However the flaw in your argument is that this was not a mutually agreed upon fight where both persons want to fight. When one of the persons involved is screaming for help for 40 seconds that's something much different then what you are describing.

Either you are a complete moron or George Zimmerman is Keyser fucking Soze with being able to pull off pre-meditated murder and get away with it.
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Ummm... very few fights are "agreed upon" by both parties (Fight Club notwithstanding). This particular fight happened to lean more heavily in one direction, until the guy in the dominant position got shot.
And I never, ever said (or even implied) that Zimmerman had planned to kill Martin. I'm just saying he's at least partially responsible for the events which unfurled, just as I would be at least partially responsible for calling your mother a cunt before you punched me, even though you would be the only one breaking the law there.
 
Araysar

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this is exhausting.

just shoot them both.
 
ZyyzYzzy

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Tanoomba, you are a sexist. If you can not see that from the posts in this thread you are retarded. Notice the adjectives you are using.

Almost everyone in our society is civil. You are describing a sociopath in your hypothetical situation, and ignoring the fact that, I don't know, it would be brought up in court if a person was known to go out and start altercations by verbal provocation first.
 
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