used or new car
- Thread starter TrollfaceDeux
- Start date
Car Dealer and good deal, dont belong in the same sentence. The best you can hope for is a fair price. If you suck at sales, just bend over and be done with it.
The movie Suckers, bad plot, fairly accurate depiction of sales mentality...
The movie Suckers, bad plot, fairly accurate depiction of sales mentality...
The internet gives even inexperienced people tons of information to negotiate a good deal. Always find it funny that people constantly think they're getting screwed when buying a car, but they're fine paying 300% markup on their phone, data plan, clothes, etc. Buying a new car is about as transparent of a deal as you'll find in any purchase these days. This isn't the 80's or 90's when you had to go by their word; the information is out there for anyone with an IQ over 80.
I guess it depends on what "getting screwed" means. In the terms of used cars, I classify getting screwed by paying extra and getting very little for it. If I pull up black book price on Manhiem, then go to most dealer sites, the asking price is a +$10,000 markup on a car they paid ~$25k for. Depending on how long it has been on the lot, you can talk them down 2 to 4k. If you are patient (~ 4-8 months of looking), you can find the same car from a private party for close to the same price the dealer pays at auction, lets say $26k.
So what does that extra 5 to 7k buy you from a dealer? A mechanical check? You can pay a mechanic, you have done research on, to do a full check for less than $500. So, it must be the warranty? The chance of having a major mechanical that will exceed 4 to 6k is fairly low, the warranties can be full of holes (like add a mod and it is void), and it is in the dealers best interest to fix it just enough to make it out of warranty. Off hand, I can't think of any other objection that would support buying from a dealer as a good deal, but if you are an educated buyer and negotiate well enough, you can go from getting screwed to getting a fair price.
Everyone can be sold. An educated buyer is a tougher sell, but a good salesman can get emotions involved without the untrained public even knowing that it is happening. Most modern, if not all, sales books heavily incorporate psychology in influencing buyers. The best sales people can maximize their commission while making friends with the customer. The customer will then give up referrals because they think the sales person is the greatest.
On the tangent not quite related to the thread: I am not fine with buying all that other shit at inflated costs either, I paid 50% new price for my phone, data plans dont have much options, as for cloths, if you want to be a GQ motha fucka, you gotta pay to play, otherwise shop at the farm store and buy plain ass shit that was made to last (what I wear around the house). With many things you buy, if you want to put in the effort, you can get good deals on it.
Daidraco
Golden Baronet of the Realm
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Its all in how the salesperson words it. If you're a schmuck, you'll buy into the "C'mon man, the house has to make a profit! We gotta pay for the lights, this lot blah blah blah." The worst thing a person can buy into is "How about I get your payment to... 500 a month?" When the customer is thinking that to buy this SUV they are going to be paying 700 a month. A lot of people dont even give a shit how its being done, as long as they can afford the payment. Meanwhile, the finance manager is extending your shit out to 8 years and doing dances behind your back cause the salesperson and the finance manager probably made 1500 a piece off that dumb ass. (Theres not that much markup in a shitty Camry, I know, blah blah blah. Im talking about the people that are surprised they have the credit to get a 45k dollar vehicle.) Chances are, those same people that buy into that shit arent going to make the payment anyways so Car People dont really give a flying f'k.
But in reality, even seeing the invoice - barely anyone bitches about the Dealer Hold Back, that even on a Toyota Yaris is something like 900 bucks profit. Much less the Processing Fee thats not even talked about until the end when you're in the finance office. You think all this "wealth" of information has helped the Car Buying Process? Get out of here! All it did was cut the Salespersons income down to nothing and shit. Meanwhile the Dealership is making probably 2 grand up front that they dont have to split with the sales person, and whatever other shit that people buy into in the Finance Office (back end). An Extended Warranty on a Toyota? Are you f'n serious? But people buy that shit all the time and its almost pure profit for the finance manager and the dealership. Hell, most of the people that I sold/saw buy vehicles usually traded their car (which is dumb already) after a few years and still be well below the mileage for the Factory Warranty. See where Im going with this?
..And thats just a New Car. I think its hilarious to know that some people dont take the time to look into the reputation of a Used Cars dealership before they purchase there. There is a Used Car Dealership in Danville, Va that buys wrecked vehicles and puts that shit back together with another vehicle. So on their lot, they have a Lexus that looks clean as shit - but they find out after they purchase it that they have different VIN numbers all over the damn car. Theyve been in the news multiple times, but they are still open and they still sell cars all the damn time. Car Facts did a good job of getting the word out there, but all a dealership has to say is "We dont have that - we cant afford to pay those prices" and then your average dumb ass buys into the fact that after haggling over a measly 2k in profit on a USED car, they cant be making too much profit when they cant afford a simple Vehicle Check. The idiocy that Dealerships capitalize on is astounding, to say the least.
I was a Sales Manager between a Toyota/Lexus dealership for 4 years in my late 20's and I feel like I have a good grasp of whats going on - and in hind sight, Im glad I found a better job. A small pay cut, but Im not working 70 hours a week either.
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Car Buying Advice
Cell Phone Buying Advice
- I sincerely hope this helps someone, cause buying a Car is still some shady shit after all this time.
But in reality, even seeing the invoice - barely anyone bitches about the Dealer Hold Back, that even on a Toyota Yaris is something like 900 bucks profit. Much less the Processing Fee thats not even talked about until the end when you're in the finance office. You think all this "wealth" of information has helped the Car Buying Process? Get out of here! All it did was cut the Salespersons income down to nothing and shit. Meanwhile the Dealership is making probably 2 grand up front that they dont have to split with the sales person, and whatever other shit that people buy into in the Finance Office (back end). An Extended Warranty on a Toyota? Are you f'n serious? But people buy that shit all the time and its almost pure profit for the finance manager and the dealership. Hell, most of the people that I sold/saw buy vehicles usually traded their car (which is dumb already) after a few years and still be well below the mileage for the Factory Warranty. See where Im going with this?
..And thats just a New Car. I think its hilarious to know that some people dont take the time to look into the reputation of a Used Cars dealership before they purchase there. There is a Used Car Dealership in Danville, Va that buys wrecked vehicles and puts that shit back together with another vehicle. So on their lot, they have a Lexus that looks clean as shit - but they find out after they purchase it that they have different VIN numbers all over the damn car. Theyve been in the news multiple times, but they are still open and they still sell cars all the damn time. Car Facts did a good job of getting the word out there, but all a dealership has to say is "We dont have that - we cant afford to pay those prices" and then your average dumb ass buys into the fact that after haggling over a measly 2k in profit on a USED car, they cant be making too much profit when they cant afford a simple Vehicle Check. The idiocy that Dealerships capitalize on is astounding, to say the least.
I was a Sales Manager between a Toyota/Lexus dealership for 4 years in my late 20's and I feel like I have a good grasp of whats going on - and in hind sight, Im glad I found a better job. A small pay cut, but Im not working 70 hours a week either.
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Car Buying Advice
You want the best advice on buying a Vehicle? It all depends on how wealthy you are. If you are trying to figure out how you can afford a Car Payment, your best bet is to stick with a Used Car and use Black Book or Edmunds.com to get the value of that used Car. (Dealers laugh at KBB because they make more money off the people that bring those prices up, usually).
If you're middle class and know you can afford a Car Payment, tally up how much you're willing to spend at around-about figure of 20 bucks for every thousand spent. Your average credit score person gets an interest rate that puts them in that same ball field. A $30,000 dollar vehicle at 600 a month, for example. Then choose a NEW Non-Luxury vehicle thats not going to plummet 8 grand as soon as you drive it off the lot and then go from there. An MSRP 21,000 dollar Camry is usually about $18,000 after it drives off the lot. Versus your American Brands that drop their value like a dropping a piece of concrete into water. Still, use those same websites listed.
If you're upper class (150/200k a year) - Regardless of what ass hat tells you different, and you want a Luxury vehicle, Lease that shit. Just about all your Luxury cars take a HUGE hit, regardless of brand, when you drive them off the lot. If you're making good money, you know what your mileage is and you can schedule that into the Contract. I drive about 18k miles a year, and fly anywhere I take a vacation to. If your mileage is really high, though, its best you take the New Non-Luxury car advice above. Schedule the turn in for a year or two later (38 months is the sweet spot if you're looking for the lowest payment, but then, why would you be buying a luxury vehicle with the lowest payment in mind?) A year lease is going to be a high monthly rate, but after that year, you're still in a better situation than what a person would be in that bought the vehicle out right.
Lastly, if you know you cant haggle worth a fuck - bring someone that can with you and let them speak for you. Sales People steam roll Women especially, and white/black people in general. Whether its because they dont care, theyre intimidated or they dont know any better. Either case, theyre nothing compared to the majority of your Indians or Asians who generally get the rock bottom price on a vehicle.
If you're middle class and know you can afford a Car Payment, tally up how much you're willing to spend at around-about figure of 20 bucks for every thousand spent. Your average credit score person gets an interest rate that puts them in that same ball field. A $30,000 dollar vehicle at 600 a month, for example. Then choose a NEW Non-Luxury vehicle thats not going to plummet 8 grand as soon as you drive it off the lot and then go from there. An MSRP 21,000 dollar Camry is usually about $18,000 after it drives off the lot. Versus your American Brands that drop their value like a dropping a piece of concrete into water. Still, use those same websites listed.
If you're upper class (150/200k a year) - Regardless of what ass hat tells you different, and you want a Luxury vehicle, Lease that shit. Just about all your Luxury cars take a HUGE hit, regardless of brand, when you drive them off the lot. If you're making good money, you know what your mileage is and you can schedule that into the Contract. I drive about 18k miles a year, and fly anywhere I take a vacation to. If your mileage is really high, though, its best you take the New Non-Luxury car advice above. Schedule the turn in for a year or two later (38 months is the sweet spot if you're looking for the lowest payment, but then, why would you be buying a luxury vehicle with the lowest payment in mind?) A year lease is going to be a high monthly rate, but after that year, you're still in a better situation than what a person would be in that bought the vehicle out right.
Lastly, if you know you cant haggle worth a fuck - bring someone that can with you and let them speak for you. Sales People steam roll Women especially, and white/black people in general. Whether its because they dont care, theyre intimidated or they dont know any better. Either case, theyre nothing compared to the majority of your Indians or Asians who generally get the rock bottom price on a vehicle.
Cell Phone Buying Advice
Also - you CAN haggle for the price of your phone. Apple has Iphones locked down pretty heavily and most of the profit from them goes directly to Apple. However, phone brands like Samsung have, generally, 150 bucks mark up on total price. Thats why you see the price of the phone drop and drop and drop through the life of it. While Apple is still riding steady at 200 bucks. You cant get a deal at the Corporate stores on these phones, but go to an "authorized retailer" and if you bitch enough, or are just smooth enough in general, theyll give you a pretty hefty discount. Even if you get all the profit knocked off the phone, theyre still making money off you contracting to Verizon for a longer period of time. Not entirely sure about what happens with poor people/price conscious people phone companies, but Im sure it isnt too different. My Uncle owns a Verizon Authorized Retailer and I hear all kinds of shit from his employees.
- I sincerely hope this helps someone, cause buying a Car is still some shady shit after all this time.
My "Newest" car was 11 years old when i got it.. so when i say used is better i might be somewhat biased since ill never be able to afford a new car . 180% registration taxing on cars sucks so much balls
TrollfaceDeux
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average going rate for used car loan is around 4-6% in our region. this is through the dealership. banks will charge you arm and legs...plus loan insurance on top of interest rate. 10-11% roughly...
and I just need $4000-6000...
cunts won't even lend that much. fuck you banks.
Lejina
(╯°□°）╯︵ ┻━┻
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Something I havn't seen anyone talk about in the thread is how long you intend to drive the car. Buying new if you're one of those who "must" change car every 2-3 years is powerfully retarded no matter how you slice it, yet there's so many people doing exactly that, it blows my mind. Then there's the "im done with the car payments! Time to get a new car!" crowd. Not as stupid, but still pretty bad.
When it comes to phone contracts, the way I negotiate and the deals I get would make an Indian shake with envy but I suck ass at buying cars. So I buy new and drive the damn thing to the ground. Even a bad deal isn't so bad when you drive the same car for almost 15 years.
When it comes to phone contracts, the way I negotiate and the deals I get would make an Indian shake with envy but I suck ass at buying cars. So I buy new and drive the damn thing to the ground. Even a bad deal isn't so bad when you drive the same car for almost 15 years.
iannis
Musty Nester
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All I ever aim for is a fair price. If you really want a good deal you have to hit the auctions and bid. You have to do what you're paying the salesman for doing.
Its not that I'm made of money, but neither do I begrudge a salesman his commission or if he owns the joint his profit. It's not like I'm buying cars every year.
But I do tend to hit small business used car lots instead of dealerships. Oh my god, fuck dealerships in the goat ass.
Its not that I'm made of money, but neither do I begrudge a salesman his commission or if he owns the joint his profit. It's not like I'm buying cars every year.
But I do tend to hit small business used car lots instead of dealerships. Oh my god, fuck dealerships in the goat ass.
Big Phoenix
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You realize in many states its illegal to sell brand new cars at anything but a dealership? Salesmans are evil since theironlydrop is fuck you in the ass aka try and make the sale price as high as possible. The new car business is just fucking stupid and ass backwards but thanks to government regulation its meant to be that way.
Borzak
Bronze Baron of the Realm
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I haven't had the problem at a dealership most people do apparently. The dealer I buy from normally stocks about 20 trucks and 1 car in the show room. I bought a new 2008 truck, sticker was $35k and change. I wrote a check for $26k and change, it was an extra cab and it sat there 6 months during an oil boom and he couldn't sell it because everyone was flush with oil lease money and wanted the top of the line truck. A year later I looked up the price for a used one and I pad less than that new.
Prior to that I bought a 2000 diesel. One came in on a Friday morning and the people who ordered it didn't want it and gave up their deposit. Owner called me that day and I bought it that afternoon, at that time there was a multi month wait to get a F series diesel and I still think I got a good deal on it especially when other dealers were selling what they had for more than sticker.
Both are still going strong.
Prior to that I bought a 2000 diesel. One came in on a Friday morning and the people who ordered it didn't want it and gave up their deposit. Owner called me that day and I bought it that afternoon, at that time there was a multi month wait to get a F series diesel and I still think I got a good deal on it especially when other dealers were selling what they had for more than sticker.
Both are still going strong.
TrollfaceDeux
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Hex
Lord Nagafen Raider
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Have you looked at going through a Credit Union? I was able to get 2.49% @ 60 months recently in my area at least, which beat the shit out of the bank and the dealer offers for a rate.
Also I test drove the Forte it was decent I liked the 2014 Mazda 3 and the Elantra a bit more though. Super bummed I couldn't go with the Mazda 3 it just didn't make sense financially for me at the moment and needed to pull the trigger soonish due to my Saturn slowly dying
edit: also Certified Pre-Owned is a good route to go if going used. It may cost a bit more than if you're working with a direct sell between two people but you also get a warranty that is limited on comprehensive usually a year (at least for the ones I looked at) and a power train warranty that is good for a few years.
TrollfaceDeux
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credit union do offer lower interest rate but I think they float around 6-8%.Have you looked at going through a Credit Union? I was able to get 2.49% @ 60 months recently in my area at least, which beat the shit out of the bank and the dealer offers for a rate.
Also I test drove the Forte it was decent I liked the 2014 Mazda 3 and the Elantra a bit more though. Super bummed I couldn't go with the Mazda 3 it just didn't make sense financially for me at the moment and needed to pull the trigger soonish due to my Saturn slowly dying
edit: also Certified Pre-Owned is a good route to go if going used. It may cost a bit more than if you're working with a direct sell between two people but you also get a warranty that is limited on comprehensive usually a year (at least for the ones I looked at) and a power train warranty that is good for a few years.
Palum
what Suineg set it to
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I've done both several times.
Performance vehicles (especially with turbos) you almost always will save money with a factory extended warranty (and just knowing how you treat the car vs shitty prev owners) if you plan on keeping the car long term AND you negotiate well (and by well I mean find out dealer invoice on the best plan and get near it). It only takes one spot of oil in the engine to warrant a 3K tear down and reassembly to find one retarded/faulty $100 part on a tuned engine.
Utility (pickup/suv) you can just get straight used. They are overpriced as shit new and depreciate really quickly to an affordable price.
Daily driver/sedan/etc., certified used is really the sweet spot.
My last two cars have been performance vehicles, so it was worth it to buy them new. I got 2.9% interest on the loan and warranty for 7 years 100K with 100% bumper to bumper coverage with a $50 deductible for non power train and free roadside assistance for around 2300 (6% over invoice). I already have clocked 6k+ in charges avoided with the warranty and my car only has 30K miles 3 years in. Some of that was 'proactive' repair but what was the alternative? Not have a warranty and blow the turbo for straight cash?
Keep in mind, certain makes/models have really, REALLY competitive warranty/maintenance plans. If you figure TCO out and can get a 0% promo or a good chunk off buying late model new, you can honestly pay the same for a new car with 11 miles on it over the cost of the first 3 years including depreciation versus getting a 3 year old vehicle with nothing. It really depends on the individual vehicle. There's just a lot of research you need to do if you want to make a good long term decision on any car.
Performance vehicles (especially with turbos) you almost always will save money with a factory extended warranty (and just knowing how you treat the car vs shitty prev owners) if you plan on keeping the car long term AND you negotiate well (and by well I mean find out dealer invoice on the best plan and get near it). It only takes one spot of oil in the engine to warrant a 3K tear down and reassembly to find one retarded/faulty $100 part on a tuned engine.
Utility (pickup/suv) you can just get straight used. They are overpriced as shit new and depreciate really quickly to an affordable price.
Daily driver/sedan/etc., certified used is really the sweet spot.
My last two cars have been performance vehicles, so it was worth it to buy them new. I got 2.9% interest on the loan and warranty for 7 years 100K with 100% bumper to bumper coverage with a $50 deductible for non power train and free roadside assistance for around 2300 (6% over invoice). I already have clocked 6k+ in charges avoided with the warranty and my car only has 30K miles 3 years in. Some of that was 'proactive' repair but what was the alternative? Not have a warranty and blow the turbo for straight cash?
Keep in mind, certain makes/models have really, REALLY competitive warranty/maintenance plans. If you figure TCO out and can get a 0% promo or a good chunk off buying late model new, you can honestly pay the same for a new car with 11 miles on it over the cost of the first 3 years including depreciation versus getting a 3 year old vehicle with nothing. It really depends on the individual vehicle. There's just a lot of research you need to do if you want to make a good long term decision on any car.
I bought new and drove for 10 years so far.I have had enough asshole's cars who never took care of them to last a lifetime.I take care of my cars and they stay good a long time.
Hex
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TrollfaceDeux
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I was quoted 3 different bi-weekly payments that had about $5 difference in each. $138, $134, $129.
Do I just come out to the dealer #1 and tell them I want a better deal. #3 dealer is pretty far and #2 dealer has a shitty reputation. Online price (from KIA) was $126-7 or close to that. I am hoping to push it down to $120 if possible.
About half of the dealership was telling me I should get them asap before "2014 stock runs out." Wakandans think I am green.
Do I just come out to the dealer #1 and tell them I want a better deal. #3 dealer is pretty far and #2 dealer has a shitty reputation. Online price (from KIA) was $126-7 or close to that. I am hoping to push it down to $120 if possible.
About half of the dealership was telling me I should get them asap before "2014 stock runs out." Wakandans think I am green.
actually i work at a kia dealership and for a lot of cars 2014s are gone. not all talk from a dealership is bullshit. in fact, more often than not the customers lie 10x more than the dealership does. another story for another day i suppose.