Well, now what?

Ukerric · Jun 15, 2019

There's basically a bunch of different "skill systems" out there:

Unlimited: The Ultima Online model: pick any number of skills, increase skill by use (until cap)
Pool: The Asheron's Call model: you unlock a number of skill based on points (earned by leveling), increase skill by use
Classed: The Vanilla WoW/EQ model: you unlock a number of skills based on class, increase skill by use (until cap)
Class talents: The Shadowbane model: you increase skill by leveling and allocating a pool of points to whatever skill your class allows
Classless talents: The ... ??? model: you purchase a number of skills, increase skill by leveling and allocating a pool of points to any of these
Refined classes: Another whose game I can't find: each class opens a number of skills, increase skills by a fixed points value when leveling (multiple class variants yield multiple points value)

Locnar · Jun 15, 2019

Elidroth said:
Nope.. I'm not talking about being given skill points that you assign. You gain points in a skill by actually using the skill.

That will just lead to macroing. But does not matter, the outcome is the same and character development the same. One is just more "tedious" and soon the dev will cave and make them near auto-grant like they did recently on EQlive with skills.

Elidroth · Jun 16, 2019

Locnar said:
That will just lead to macroing. But does not matter, the outcome is the same and character development the same. One is just more "tedious" and soon the dev will cave and make them near auto-grant like they did recently on EQlive with skills.

Well since this would be MY game and since in my dream world here, I'd already won the lottery, so I wouldn't be too worried about player panic, caving wouldn't be a thing.
Sure you could macro stuff, but then why are you playing the game in the first place? I DO think it's possible to create this system correctly where macro'ing everything wouldn't work very well..
One of the things I enjoyed most about Vanilla WoW was the journey through the games. Leveling up was sort of an afterthought. That's the kind of gameplay experience I'd like..

Ukerric · Jun 16, 2019

Elidroth said:
Sure you could macro stuff, but then why are you playing the game in the first place? I DO think it's possible to create this system correctly where macro'ing everything wouldn't work very well..

Macroing combat-related skills can simply be negated by requiring one to be in combat "with an appropriate enemy". The macro problem rears its head when you're talking about non-combat skills (example: Fishing).

The "appropriate enemy" clause is to avoid the "I aggro a lvl 1 bunny who does less dps than I regenerate per second".

Locnar · Jun 16, 2019

The people that run the Legends of Kesmai emu (a game that originally started in the mid 80's on compuserve for $6 a hour , don't get me started on that when I was making $3 a hour as a teenage bus boy back then.....) delete your characters, your account, and BAN you permanently from their game the FIRST time you are caught macroing.

That is what it would take to stop macroing, nothing else will, especially in this day and age of advanced 3rd party automation.

Ukerric said:
There's basically a bunch of different "skill systems" out there:

Classless talents: The ... ??? model: you purchase a number of skills, increase skill by leveling and allocating a pool of points to any of these

Refined classes: Another whose game I can't find: each class opens a number of skills, increase skills by a fixed points value when leveling (multiple class variants yield multiple points value)

I think Darkfall did classless talent system. Which I can't stand. Leads to everyone being everything or everyone being the same thing/build.

Elidroth · Jun 27, 2019

That's only true if you don't force people into specific rolls. But force, I mean don't allow people to build a min/maxed jack of all trades.. As an example, you (through content) force people to have a true tank to stand up to the ass-beat of a boss mob.. something a hybrid tank/heals can't handle by themselves. I'm in no way suggesting my idea would be easy to implement.. but it's still something I want to tackle someday. As they say, the hard is what makes it worth it.

Daidraco · Jun 27, 2019

There has to be different ways to say you've done certain content without making armor more and more elaborate with each content patch. Even then, with a transmogrify/glamour system in place- that doesnt matter much anymore. I feel like the vast majority of people could give a shit about your achievements unless you're trying to join their raids. I'm sure mounts would be a part of your game, and something that I thought was cool about the Witcher is that you would cut the head off of your enemies and hang it on your mount. Even if you allow the heads to be changed cosmetically, it shows a pure progression of what you've accomplished with the most recent. Of course, that depending on whether you have different difficulties like WoW. But I personally hate that the same raid has different difficulties for Timmy and for Method-Spazzes.

Elidroth · Jun 28, 2019

In a lot of ways early EQ did this by accident. Unique looking armor came from specific things, so when they guy strolled into EC wearing a full suit of some armor, you knew what he'd done and where he'd been. Dyes killed that completely.

ZyyzYzzy · Jun 28, 2019

Elidroth said:
In a lot of ways early EQ did this by accident. Unique looking armor came from specific things, so when they guy strolled into EC wearing a full suit of some armor, you knew what he'd done and where he'd been. Dyes killed that completely.

Luclin models and abandoning the idea velious brought with textures makes me soooooo sad

Elidroth · Jun 28, 2019

I've never liked the Luclin models. Ever.

Sterling · Jun 28, 2019

Elidroth said:
I've never liked the Luclin models. Ever.

A lot of them looked ok when the model was static, but virtually every Luclin model had worse animations than the older models. I never understood how that could happen nearly completely across the board like that. 1 or 2 models sure, but almost all of them?

Elidroth · Jun 29, 2019

No clue. I can't imagine an actual artist I worked with in my entire game dev career would have ever been happy with those animations. They were god awful. I never played with Luclin models. By far the worst of the change was the Ogre and Troll. Both of those races lost any of the humor and character to their appearances. It was really sad IMO.

Punko · Jun 29, 2019

Elidroth said:
Not true. Itemization in EQ was very flat overall until around Velious.. Kunark had some stuff, but it was locked behind higher level/more difficult content. Also, I'm not saying it's 100% flat, I'm just saying the growth in items will be slow.. so content coming out tomorrow doesn't absolutely make today/yesterday's content trivial. The flatter your power progression is, the longer lasting your world content is..

I think Kunark had some insanely powerful items, given how easy they were to attain (hierophants cloak, JBB, rogue epic, T-staff ..), but we can disagree on that.

However I don't see the incentive to do new zones, if the loot ugprades are marginal and character upgrades absent?

PVP content would serve as a timesink far better then PVE content I think, since people love to beat other people, beating NPCs without reason gets old pretty fast.

An MMO with an e-sports aspect that serves as a timesink and brings minimal upgrades is the way to go.

Elidroth said:
No clue. I can't imagine an actual artist I worked with in my entire game dev career would have ever been happy with those animations. They were god awful. I never played with Luclin models. By far the worst of the change was the Ogre and Troll. Both of those races lost any of the humor and character to their appearances. It was really sad IMO.

Original EQ troll models, their waddle, their nose, their butt-scratching, it was authentic, it was art!

Can't help but think they ripped off that model to create Shreks ears. EQ's were better though.

Kharzette · Jun 29, 2019

I was thinking about fixing the luclin animations, like some of the loops have a pop in them etc. And I wanted to try retargeting the old anims into the luclin models. I don't have code in my own tools to do that, but I can export to collada and load em into unity. Unity does good motion retargeting.

I'll get back to it eventually.

Ukerric · Jun 30, 2019

Elidroth said:
Dyes killed that completely.

Once that came out, I dyed all my armor in the correct color for Plane of Hate original cleric armor, and never changed the look ever again.

Jorren · Jun 30, 2019

Circling back to the question "What about new players? Newbie zones will become ghost towns."

I think this can be helped by including something in the LFG tool. Destiny 2 has a way where a clan or a group can queue into a raid with a few members and be match made with people looking to learn the raid. It is not a perfect implementation there, but you can get special emblems and the like for doing it.

The guild I was a part of in EQ had a ton of people that loved just roaming around helping newbies out. Take mentoring from EQ2 and improve it and boom.

Locnar · Jul 1, 2019

Dyes were ok in their original form, that were hard to gather up and craft and then could only be added to crafted armor combines to change their color. Semi useful and mostly useful for ceremonial "look at me" armor. They did not effect most of the dropped armor and sets.

But then they flipped the ezmode switch and made dyes for everyone and everything. same old story

Punko · Jul 1, 2019

I spent a good amount of RMT money on dyes when they were new.

Ain't nobody got time for that.

Sadre Spinegnawer · Jul 5, 2019

Jorren said:
Circling back to the question "What about new players? Newbie zones will become ghost towns."

I think this can be helped by including something in the LFG tool. Destiny 2 has a way where a clan or a group can queue into a raid with a few members and be match made with people looking to learn the raid. It is not a perfect implementation there, but you can get special emblems and the like for doing it.

The guild I was a part of in EQ had a ton of people that loved just roaming around helping newbies out. Take mentoring from EQ2 and improve it and boom.

My most recnt dips into the eq world confirmed for me the absolute importance of building sociality into the game. Like on p99, the entire "player economy" of ports. Of course it has flaws, but it does mean, you are going to be interacting with someone. This is key to the eq world.

When I got my c1 pants, I would just chill sometimes and cast c1 on newbs.

Sociality is like a feedback loop. It reinforces your interest in the game by making you feel you are part of the world. I do not think I am saying clearly what I am trying to say, but I hope you all can get my main angle here. Sociality is crucial.

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