What did you just read?
- Thread starter Fippy Darkpaw
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Argarth
On the verandah
- 1,277
- 1,183
Kiroy
Marine Biologist
- 35,445
- 102,571
It gets much better honestly, think of gardens of the moon as a pilot. I've read through the entire series three times and the second read through is the ultimate experience. Only fantasy series that's made me get a bit misty eye'd in a few different points.
- 1
chaos
Buzzfeed Editor
- 17,324
- 4,839
I dont want to spoil anything for people who care about that, but generally speaking everything after they entered the tomb was some of the best fantasy I've ever read. Fucking legit amazing story and characters. I don't know if I would have that same opinion if I hadn't supplemented with outside materials, but I'm also doing the audiobooks which can sometimes be hard to follow with a complicated story and retarded listener. I might like the physical books better, I think I might try that with Deadhouse Gates. The voice actor does good work but there's just so many different characters.
- 1
Kiroy
Marine Biologist
- 35,445
- 102,571
reading through the physical books, erikson always provides maps and a non-spoilerish list of characters that I would refer to constantly
Campbell1oo4
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,930
- 6,137
Dune by Frank Herbert
** spoiler alert ** I believe this is the fourth time that I have read Dune. The first two times were when I was a teenager, and I liked it for what I thought it was; a sci-fi adventure story. The third time I read the book I liked it for the byzantine politics that dominate in the first part, and the Gone Native theme in the second part. It was almost as if Game of Thrones met Dances with Wolves.
This time, however, I have read this book while looking through a different lens. After reading through so many books by C.G. Jung, I couldn't help but notice the subtle similarities between the idea that you have a dreamer inside of you, a sort of soul, that needs to be awakened, and the line, "The Sleeper has awakened!" Research followed, and I discovered Frank Herbert was good friends with a pair of Jungian psychologists. On top of that, his study of Jungian ideas heavily influenced Dune. I had to read this book again.
Influences abound in Dune...
Duke Leto is the Old King who is struck down by a personification of Uncontrolled Passions (Baron Harkonnen). Very similar to the Osiris story. Osiris was the God-King of Egypt who, after growing willfully blind to his responsibilities, was killed by Set. After Set took over, Egypt devolved into a wasteland of uncontrolled passions.
His son, Paul (or Horus), descends into the Dry Hell that is Dune in order to find 'the treasure that is hard to attain.' Corresponding with the two main plots of the book, Paul finds two treasures. The first is the sense of Self that exists inside him, which he uses to advance to a level of spirituality hence unseen. The second is the Fremen, which he will use as a weapon against his material enemies.
Standing beside Paul is his witch mother, Jessica, who as soon as her son becomes a psychological adult (only capable once his father has died) becomes a chthonic goddess of great power.
Together with Alia, both Chani and Jessica seem to form the Kore; the triple goddess who is exemplified by the Greek Persephone, Demeter and Hecate. They are the virgin, the mother and the old hag (chthonic goddess).
Within this Dry Hell, which is at once both the Unknown and the Unconscious, great dragons traverse the sands. They are the Ouroboros, which consumes and creates itself repeatedly. This ties in with the spice mélange, the rare substance produced by the worms. The spice mélange is a sort of prima materia which allows Paul to ascend to a higher state of psychology.
One must read Jung to catch much of this. Jung often wrote of a prima materia that allows a person to contact the Self contained within. Once a person had integrated the Self, they would have a greater understanding and control of their psyche, and would lead a more fulfilling life. Such was his objective as a psychologist.
But Jung also wrote of the Anima and the Shadow, two conceptualizations that exist within every human being (just as the Self does). Not surprisingly, both the Anima and the Shadow appear in Dune. I believe that Jessica is, at first, Paul's Anima. She checks his ego and constantly makes him deal with the fact that he is not good enough. But that role seems to shift to Chani, who enters into a relationship with Paul. This is a material representation of Paul's integration of the Anima, his feminine side. In this way he is one step closer to becoming the Syzygy, the Union of Opposites, the Cosmic Hermaphrodite.
The Shadow is Feyd-Rautha. He is of a similar age to Paul, but encapsulates all of the attributes that Paul does not. It is not until the last chapter, when Paul has become aware of and vocalizes the fact that he has Harkonnen blood in his veins, that he slays Feyd-Rautha. Such a violent victory is a metaphor for the integration of the Shadow. Paul accepts the fact that he has Harkonnen (evil, or simply unconscious elements that he does not like) within him. A story is a story though, and we need a climatic battle.
The last example I will write about here is the Christian idea of Death and Rebirth before Ascension. Near the end of the book, after Gurney Halleck tries to assassinate the Lady Jessica, Paul realizes that he does not have the powers he needs in order to defeat the Harkonnens. He decides to drink the prima materia and is sent into a state similar to death. For three weeks he remains in a coma, until the Anima returns to him and pulls him out of it. He is reborn, not as Paul Atreides, but as the sort of Superman that Christians would call Christ and Nietzsche would called the Ubermensch. It is only after dying and coming back from the dead can he Ascend to a new level of humanity, and right the wrongs that have been committed against his father.
At its heart, Dune is a fairy-tale. It is about a prince who suffers the assassination of his father, and in response rides out into the wilderness to conquer dragons and discover treasure. With this treasure he rides back to the kingdom, defeats his enemies, and takes his rightful upon the throne. It is the oldest story that Mankind has ever come up with, just in new clothes, and that is what makes it a great story.
** spoiler alert ** I believe this is the fourth time that I have read Dune. The first two times were when I was a teenager, and I liked it for what I thought it was; a sci-fi adventure story. The third time I read the book I liked it for the byzantine politics that dominate in the first part, and the Gone Native theme in the second part. It was almost as if Game of Thrones met Dances with Wolves.
This time, however, I have read this book while looking through a different lens. After reading through so many books by C.G. Jung, I couldn't help but notice the subtle similarities between the idea that you have a dreamer inside of you, a sort of soul, that needs to be awakened, and the line, "The Sleeper has awakened!" Research followed, and I discovered Frank Herbert was good friends with a pair of Jungian psychologists. On top of that, his study of Jungian ideas heavily influenced Dune. I had to read this book again.
Influences abound in Dune...
Duke Leto is the Old King who is struck down by a personification of Uncontrolled Passions (Baron Harkonnen). Very similar to the Osiris story. Osiris was the God-King of Egypt who, after growing willfully blind to his responsibilities, was killed by Set. After Set took over, Egypt devolved into a wasteland of uncontrolled passions.
His son, Paul (or Horus), descends into the Dry Hell that is Dune in order to find 'the treasure that is hard to attain.' Corresponding with the two main plots of the book, Paul finds two treasures. The first is the sense of Self that exists inside him, which he uses to advance to a level of spirituality hence unseen. The second is the Fremen, which he will use as a weapon against his material enemies.
Standing beside Paul is his witch mother, Jessica, who as soon as her son becomes a psychological adult (only capable once his father has died) becomes a chthonic goddess of great power.
Together with Alia, both Chani and Jessica seem to form the Kore; the triple goddess who is exemplified by the Greek Persephone, Demeter and Hecate. They are the virgin, the mother and the old hag (chthonic goddess).
Within this Dry Hell, which is at once both the Unknown and the Unconscious, great dragons traverse the sands. They are the Ouroboros, which consumes and creates itself repeatedly. This ties in with the spice mélange, the rare substance produced by the worms. The spice mélange is a sort of prima materia which allows Paul to ascend to a higher state of psychology.
One must read Jung to catch much of this. Jung often wrote of a prima materia that allows a person to contact the Self contained within. Once a person had integrated the Self, they would have a greater understanding and control of their psyche, and would lead a more fulfilling life. Such was his objective as a psychologist.
But Jung also wrote of the Anima and the Shadow, two conceptualizations that exist within every human being (just as the Self does). Not surprisingly, both the Anima and the Shadow appear in Dune. I believe that Jessica is, at first, Paul's Anima. She checks his ego and constantly makes him deal with the fact that he is not good enough. But that role seems to shift to Chani, who enters into a relationship with Paul. This is a material representation of Paul's integration of the Anima, his feminine side. In this way he is one step closer to becoming the Syzygy, the Union of Opposites, the Cosmic Hermaphrodite.
The Shadow is Feyd-Rautha. He is of a similar age to Paul, but encapsulates all of the attributes that Paul does not. It is not until the last chapter, when Paul has become aware of and vocalizes the fact that he has Harkonnen blood in his veins, that he slays Feyd-Rautha. Such a violent victory is a metaphor for the integration of the Shadow. Paul accepts the fact that he has Harkonnen (evil, or simply unconscious elements that he does not like) within him. A story is a story though, and we need a climatic battle.
The last example I will write about here is the Christian idea of Death and Rebirth before Ascension. Near the end of the book, after Gurney Halleck tries to assassinate the Lady Jessica, Paul realizes that he does not have the powers he needs in order to defeat the Harkonnens. He decides to drink the prima materia and is sent into a state similar to death. For three weeks he remains in a coma, until the Anima returns to him and pulls him out of it. He is reborn, not as Paul Atreides, but as the sort of Superman that Christians would call Christ and Nietzsche would called the Ubermensch. It is only after dying and coming back from the dead can he Ascend to a new level of humanity, and right the wrongs that have been committed against his father.
At its heart, Dune is a fairy-tale. It is about a prince who suffers the assassination of his father, and in response rides out into the wilderness to conquer dragons and discover treasure. With this treasure he rides back to the kingdom, defeats his enemies, and takes his rightful upon the throne. It is the oldest story that Mankind has ever come up with, just in new clothes, and that is what makes it a great story.
- 3
Furry
🌭🍔🇺🇦✌️SLAVA UKRAINI!✌️🇺🇦🍔🌭
- 22,266
- 29,269
You barely touch on what I took away as the core of the book, so I wanted to add some commentary, since I think the story of Dune is really just window dressing for the point of dune.
At the start of dune, the Baron lays out every step of his plan, and from his point of view his plan is nearly flawless for the entire book. A reoccurring theme in Dune is how mentats require the correct information to arrive at the correct results, and the Baron frequently uses this flow of inromation in a way to control and focus his mentats. Paul in service to this plot point mostly shows the growth of awareness, through the book to achieve an understanding of the whole situation.
I think the most important scene in the book by far is the confrontation between the Baron and the Emperor. This scene feels a lot different than all of the other ones in the book, and very intentionally so I think. The Emperor at that point has come to realize the folly of what has happened, and he completely destroys the way the Baron thinks and the error of what he's done step by step. The Emperor hammers home that it wasn't any of the evil things that he did that were a cause of his downfall, but the fact that he had limited his information and not spent the time to understand the situation. The same way he had hoped to control his mentats he had been blinding himself from the reality of Dune.
I think further evidence to the fact that the story was really about the Baron and the true errors he made comes from the fact that Paul realizes that he is not important in the story. He quickly realizes that even if he were to die the exact same thing would happen, that the armies of the jihad would spread out across the universe and wreck havoc. It was the Baron's miss-management that created a society so ready to explode.
I believe Herbert was often writing as a way to explore society, conscious, and trying to touch on the ultimate expansion of both.
I think the most important scene in the book by far is the confrontation between the Baron and the Emperor. This scene feels a lot different than all of the other ones in the book, and very intentionally so I think. The Emperor at that point has come to realize the folly of what has happened, and he completely destroys the way the Baron thinks and the error of what he's done step by step. The Emperor hammers home that it wasn't any of the evil things that he did that were a cause of his downfall, but the fact that he had limited his information and not spent the time to understand the situation. The same way he had hoped to control his mentats he had been blinding himself from the reality of Dune.
I think further evidence to the fact that the story was really about the Baron and the true errors he made comes from the fact that Paul realizes that he is not important in the story. He quickly realizes that even if he were to die the exact same thing would happen, that the armies of the jihad would spread out across the universe and wreck havoc. It was the Baron's miss-management that created a society so ready to explode.
I believe Herbert was often writing as a way to explore society, conscious, and trying to touch on the ultimate expansion of both.
- 1
Campbell1oo4
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,930
- 6,137
Interesting that you mention this because I think it also ties in with Jung's ideas. In one of his books he writes that if you repress a piece of yourself for too long, it will come back violently.
I think that Baron Harkonnen, as the Overlord of Arrakis and the representation of Unchecked Passions, represses the Fremen to the point of the Jihad. The Jihad being a violent and authoritarian religious movement. Religion is often considered a traditionally conservative territory, and it is not beyond the realm of reasonability to say that conservativism is the opposite of Unchecked Passions. Order bites back with a vengeance because it is repressed by Chaos.
You could also say that Baron Harkonnen is too much of a materialist. I read somewhere that the Mentats represent the mechanical, mathematical part of the brain. They represent Order. On the other hand, the Bene Gesserit represents the artistic, creative part of the brain. They represent Chaos. The Baron does not keep a Bene Gesserit sorceress in his household, meaning he doesn't incorporate his artistic/creative side. He relies far too much on the mathematical (Mentat) part. This ties in real well with what you were saying about the Baron coming before the Emperor and feeling like he had miscalculated. It is true! He ignored 50% of the picture. He over-specialized, and human beings are not suppose to over-specialize.
Man, I love Dune.
- 2
Intrinsic
Person of Whiteness
- 15,215
- 13,595
My main takeway from Harrow the Ninth is that while Harrow may have appeared a bit unbalanced from Gideon's point of view, it was all an illusion and she was in fact utterly bugshit crazy.
I just finished Gideon based on the recommendations here and my feelings are mixed. For one it took me an absurdly long time to get in to the novel. I'll assume part of the blame for that, maybe I'm just an idiot, but there was something about the writing that just wouldn't latch. The cadence or phrasing, something. But anyways, once past that it flowed well enough for me.
The other thing is that a large core of the book is just a poorly written "Clue" or any other variation of a whodunit and I didn't find it done very well. Bunch of strangers get together at an unknown location, mysteries abound about their host, murders happen, etc... Large amounts of the book have little to nothing to do with the space setting, necromancer setting, magic setting. It is just a bunch of people with strange names acting all put off and confrontational. Like most of those types of stories. Then you get some cool parts of the trials that we see.
Gideon was distracting as a character. It never felt grounded in what type of setting it was supposed to be. Her dialogue was so far above and beyond and 4th wall breaking that for me it detracted from the character as a whole. It was the definition of too "try hard" to be taken seriously. It wanted to be anachronistic + SciFi + edgy I guess? Just came off like a 12 year old brat who learned a few cuss words and what sarcasm was.
But then I get about 75% of the way through when everything finally starts clicking and coming together and it was hard to put down. It just took forever to get there. Once stuff starts popping off and some of the character's relationships are really tested and developed there's a lot of stuff I enjoyed. The world building seems very cool and even getting to the extra content at the back was interesting to read. I just wish like 50% more of the book had been.
Looking forward to Harrow. Maybe I'll enjoy it even more if she's played more straight than Gideon.
LiquidDeath
Magnus Deadlift the Fucktiger
- 5,065
- 11,981
Shout out to the people who suggested The Laundry Files. Finished the first one after having them sitting on my e-reader for a few years and it was awesome. Is there a point in the series where I should stop or are they all pretty fantastic?
- 2
Ukerric
Bearded Ape
- 8,370
- 10,403
After a while, he switched main characters, having more or less exhausted Bob's potential. The "spin-offs" are relatively interesting, but less so.
Bob (S-tier): The Atrocity Archives, The Jennifer Morgue, The Fuller Memorandum, The Apocalypse Codex, The Rhesus Chart, The Delirium Brief (A-tier)
"Mo" aka Bob's Wife (B-tier): The Annihilation Score
Alex Schwartz (A-tier): The Nightmare Stacks
Mhari Murphy aka Bob's former GF (C-tier): The Labyrinth Index
bunch of random unknowns (F-tier): Dead Lies Dreaming
If you want a good, satisfying series, the first four make a good complete set. Rhesus Chart is still good, but sets up the spinoffs, and even if you get a quick return to Bob later, the rest is basically the Magic Lovecraftian Apocalypse, not the underground magic agency that made the series top-tier. The 10th book looks interesting in the abstract, and I'm pretty sure there's a big payoff coming at the end, but I couldn't find myself to care. After 10 months, it's still at 14% read on my reader, because there is absolutely no pre-existing character in sight yet.
- 1
- 1
Arbitrary
Tranny Chaser
- 29,606
- 82,029
The most recent one, Dead Lies Dreaming, is the only bad one in the series and it's bad. It doesn't have any characters you know and doesn't advance the main story much if any.
I don't like Mo as a person at all but I still liked quite a lot her point of view book The Annihilation Score. That says a lot for the quality of the writing that I could still plow through a book with a main character I think is just a bad person.
Ukerric
didn't rate it highly but I think the Labyrinth Index is pretty great. It's like a chef taking all the scraps from a day's worth of cooking and making a brand new thing out of them. It's one of the few I've listened to twice on audiobook.- 2
Kovaks
Mr. Poopybutthole
- 2,358
- 3,147
I'm on the same journey, the third book Memory of Ice is where it really picks up for me, I liked the first 2 but the third has really pulled me in
Campbell1oo4
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,930
- 6,137
Psychology and Alchemy by C.G. Jung
Since learning about alchemy in middle school, I took it as just one more example of how people in the Middle Ages were so much dumber than Modern people.
But this book changed that.
Jung provides two things with this book; the first is a solid look at what alchemy actually was. The second is how alchemical ideas manifested themselves in individual alchemists.
It turns out that alchemy was never about transforming base metals in gold. That was either a ploy to trick the less intelligent, or metaphorical language. Probably a bit of both.
Alchemy was, from the very beginning, a series of projections experienced and recorded by pre-Modern people. As they went through life, growing and maturing, they sought a way to record these transformations. The way they did this was through alchemy.
There are said to be four stages; black, white, yellow and red.
Black is the total defeat of a person. It is the miniature death that paves the way for a transformation. Next comes white, which has been personified by the Holy Spirit or the Madonna. This washes away the impurities of the person. In non-metaphorical language, black represents a traumatic event to the psyche. White represents the integration of a new idea, the transformation from unexplored territory to explored territory.
Yellow is named for the rising sun, which is metaphorical language for the dawning of a new iteration of the psyche. Red represents the fully risen sun, signifying that the process has been completed. Again in non-metaphorical language this correlates to the learning of a lesson and the different method of living one’s life that comes from the integration of that lesson.
An example; a person has their heart broken. They are cast down into a black pit of despair. But one day they realize that it is not the end of the world. They can grow and love again. Eventually, they fall in love again, but this new relationship is different, because the person is different. They will never be the same. They have learned a life lesson.
That is the truth of alchemy.
It is also the core of the Hero Myth; King either grows old and/or become tyrannical. It is up to the Prince to descend into the depths, or into Hades, in order to save the King and lift him back up. But in the process, the Prince is 'killed.' He is Apollo, the Logos, who succumbs to Nature. The King is 'reborn' in the form of the Prince, who becomes the King. It is the defeat of Death; constant rejuvenation of Humanity through youth.
But that is an ancient story, more fitting for Greeks or Egyptians. How did that manifest in pre-Modern people? Who had no understanding of science? Usually in manifested itself in religious language.
That is second half of this book, as Jung breaks down the various metaphors used by alchemists. One of those is the Philosopher’s Stone, which was the thing that gave you ever-lasting life. Jung draws a comparison (in psychological terms) between the Stone and Individuation, when one comes to terms with the various pieces of their psychology. Many Christian Alchemists also drew a comparison between the Stone and Jesus, which adds an interesting level of providing an example for people to follow. Jesus is considered a culture hero because he sacrificed himself for the good of the community. Therefore people should be like Jesus, and think of their communities before their own selfish needs.
There is one more thing I want to mention. Towards the end of the book, Jung writes about Mass Psychosis. He uses Nazi Germany as an example of this phenomenon. The German people, he claims, succumbed to a sort of National Madness, in which they elevated Adolf Hitler to the level of a God. The problem with that is that if God gives you a command, and you believe it, you carry it out. But if your God is a man? Very dangerous.
It makes a good argument for keeping God in a transcendental space, where he cannot give direct commands to his followers, and where anyone who claims to be the mouth-piece of God can be decried as a fraud.
Since learning about alchemy in middle school, I took it as just one more example of how people in the Middle Ages were so much dumber than Modern people.
But this book changed that.
Jung provides two things with this book; the first is a solid look at what alchemy actually was. The second is how alchemical ideas manifested themselves in individual alchemists.
It turns out that alchemy was never about transforming base metals in gold. That was either a ploy to trick the less intelligent, or metaphorical language. Probably a bit of both.
Alchemy was, from the very beginning, a series of projections experienced and recorded by pre-Modern people. As they went through life, growing and maturing, they sought a way to record these transformations. The way they did this was through alchemy.
There are said to be four stages; black, white, yellow and red.
Black is the total defeat of a person. It is the miniature death that paves the way for a transformation. Next comes white, which has been personified by the Holy Spirit or the Madonna. This washes away the impurities of the person. In non-metaphorical language, black represents a traumatic event to the psyche. White represents the integration of a new idea, the transformation from unexplored territory to explored territory.
Yellow is named for the rising sun, which is metaphorical language for the dawning of a new iteration of the psyche. Red represents the fully risen sun, signifying that the process has been completed. Again in non-metaphorical language this correlates to the learning of a lesson and the different method of living one’s life that comes from the integration of that lesson.
An example; a person has their heart broken. They are cast down into a black pit of despair. But one day they realize that it is not the end of the world. They can grow and love again. Eventually, they fall in love again, but this new relationship is different, because the person is different. They will never be the same. They have learned a life lesson.
That is the truth of alchemy.
It is also the core of the Hero Myth; King either grows old and/or become tyrannical. It is up to the Prince to descend into the depths, or into Hades, in order to save the King and lift him back up. But in the process, the Prince is 'killed.' He is Apollo, the Logos, who succumbs to Nature. The King is 'reborn' in the form of the Prince, who becomes the King. It is the defeat of Death; constant rejuvenation of Humanity through youth.
But that is an ancient story, more fitting for Greeks or Egyptians. How did that manifest in pre-Modern people? Who had no understanding of science? Usually in manifested itself in religious language.
That is second half of this book, as Jung breaks down the various metaphors used by alchemists. One of those is the Philosopher’s Stone, which was the thing that gave you ever-lasting life. Jung draws a comparison (in psychological terms) between the Stone and Individuation, when one comes to terms with the various pieces of their psychology. Many Christian Alchemists also drew a comparison between the Stone and Jesus, which adds an interesting level of providing an example for people to follow. Jesus is considered a culture hero because he sacrificed himself for the good of the community. Therefore people should be like Jesus, and think of their communities before their own selfish needs.
There is one more thing I want to mention. Towards the end of the book, Jung writes about Mass Psychosis. He uses Nazi Germany as an example of this phenomenon. The German people, he claims, succumbed to a sort of National Madness, in which they elevated Adolf Hitler to the level of a God. The problem with that is that if God gives you a command, and you believe it, you carry it out. But if your God is a man? Very dangerous.
It makes a good argument for keeping God in a transcendental space, where he cannot give direct commands to his followers, and where anyone who claims to be the mouth-piece of God can be decried as a fraud.
- 1
Randin
Trakanon Raider
- 1,932
- 891
The Crusades by Thomas Asbridge. A history on the Crusades--shocking, I know. This is the second book I've read by Asbridge (the first being the book The Greatest Knight, which I believe I've posted about here), and in addition to simply writing good history, he has a real skill for turning history into a strong narrative rather than a simple recitation of facts, making his stuff especially readable for a history book. He covers some topics in greater detail than I've seen in other books on the subject--like the actual creation of the Crusader States after the First Crusade--and he does something interesting by having each section of the book swap which perspective it's focusing on: the first section looking at events from the perspective of the Crusaders, the second from the perspective of the Muslims, and so on. I'm inclined to say that it you're looking for a general history on the Crusades, this might be one of the best ones out there.
- 3
Campbell1oo4
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,930
- 6,137
Dune Messiah by Frank Herbert
I reviewed this in 2019, and did not give it a favorable response. My opinions have changed since then. Armed with more life experience, and the knowledge that Herbert incorporated Jungian ideas into this books, I re-read Messiah. And I enjoyed it more than I did the first time, deciding to bump up my rating from two stars to three stars.
But why? There are two main reasons. The first is the certain knowledge that this is the Hero's Story, set in a fantastic world, but turned to a realistic degree. Power corrupts. Institutions built by good human beings become corrupted by ambitious human beings. We see that here in Messiah. The Fremen, the hardy desert folk who catapulted Paul to the Imperial Throne, have become religious zealots who have exterminated some billions of people. On top of that, the state apparatus has developed a religious appendage in the form of the Qizarate, a holy order of priests that even plans to assassinate Paul's consort. The message is clear; even if you are a Hero who fights for good, you will attract bad people, and in their ambition they will plot against you. It is an interesting (if depressing) take on the Hero's Story.
It also dawned on me that Herbert wrote this book (and the first Dune book) to give the reader the same powers that Paul has. You both see what is coming. There will be betrayals, tricks and the jihad. But you don't know how it will get there. Just like Paul. That is why you know about the Doctor and his betrayal in the first book. You are put in Paul's position.
The second reason why I enjoyed this so much more than the first time is because of the Jungian influences. It was my pleasure to read through the first Dune and make note of incorporated ideas, and I did the same thing here.
Paul and Alia make up the syzygy, the cosmic hermaphrodite, the union of opposites that is the strongest creature in the universe (a creature that is effectively the dual-natured ruler of this galactic empire). This idea is repeated when it is revealed that Chani gave birth to twins, one girl and one boy.
Then there is Bajiz, the dwarf. In his book, "Psychology and Alchemy," Jung wrote that dwarfs were assistants in the navigation of the Unconscious (pg. 157). Bajiz certainly does that for both Paul (literally pulling his hand out of the house so that Paul can meet the Stone Burner, a danger he has learned of through his ability to delve into the future). Bajiz also does that for Hayt, by activating a 'compulsion' hidden within his mind. Jung also wrote that dwarves were chthonic creatures; chthonic meaning from the earth or the underworld, and there negative aspects were to be tricksters. Bajiz, with his manner of speaking, is clearly a trickster.
Hayt, the reincarnated form of Duncan Idaho, seems to be a representation of the Individuated Man. In the first Dune book, he dies. In this one he returns thanks to some mysterious technology. He then spends the entire novel trying to figure out if he is Hayt or if he is Duncan Idaho. As it turns out, the mysterious order that recreated him installed hidden compulsions in his mind, and intend to use him to assassinate Paul. In the climatic moment where this is supposed to take place, Hayt overcomes his compulsion and unlocks all of his memories of when he was Duncan Idaho. He becomes Idaho once more.
The four stages of alchemy are well represented here. Idaho was killed (the Black). He was washed clean of the impurities of his past life (the White) and given a new body. He is then given to Paul, who constantly has conversations about who he really is and makes him question his identity (the Yellow). And then in the climax he finally overcomes his unconscious compulsions (also represented by the Black) to become a Whole Man; the Union of Past and Present. By doing that he unlocks all of his past memories, and with the skills he was given after his death, he becomes a force to be reckoned with.
His internal battle to rediscover who he was is a fantastic sub-plot that really gives the novel a bit more oomph, and was my favorite part of the entire story.
I would recommend it to anyone who has read anything Jungian, or who has read the first Dune book. It has a lot more internal conflicts than the first, and that might turn some readers away. It did for me the first time I read it. But there are layers to these internal conflicts that in some way make this book more interesting than the first.
I reviewed this in 2019, and did not give it a favorable response. My opinions have changed since then. Armed with more life experience, and the knowledge that Herbert incorporated Jungian ideas into this books, I re-read Messiah. And I enjoyed it more than I did the first time, deciding to bump up my rating from two stars to three stars.
But why? There are two main reasons. The first is the certain knowledge that this is the Hero's Story, set in a fantastic world, but turned to a realistic degree. Power corrupts. Institutions built by good human beings become corrupted by ambitious human beings. We see that here in Messiah. The Fremen, the hardy desert folk who catapulted Paul to the Imperial Throne, have become religious zealots who have exterminated some billions of people. On top of that, the state apparatus has developed a religious appendage in the form of the Qizarate, a holy order of priests that even plans to assassinate Paul's consort. The message is clear; even if you are a Hero who fights for good, you will attract bad people, and in their ambition they will plot against you. It is an interesting (if depressing) take on the Hero's Story.
It also dawned on me that Herbert wrote this book (and the first Dune book) to give the reader the same powers that Paul has. You both see what is coming. There will be betrayals, tricks and the jihad. But you don't know how it will get there. Just like Paul. That is why you know about the Doctor and his betrayal in the first book. You are put in Paul's position.
The second reason why I enjoyed this so much more than the first time is because of the Jungian influences. It was my pleasure to read through the first Dune and make note of incorporated ideas, and I did the same thing here.
Paul and Alia make up the syzygy, the cosmic hermaphrodite, the union of opposites that is the strongest creature in the universe (a creature that is effectively the dual-natured ruler of this galactic empire). This idea is repeated when it is revealed that Chani gave birth to twins, one girl and one boy.
Then there is Bajiz, the dwarf. In his book, "Psychology and Alchemy," Jung wrote that dwarfs were assistants in the navigation of the Unconscious (pg. 157). Bajiz certainly does that for both Paul (literally pulling his hand out of the house so that Paul can meet the Stone Burner, a danger he has learned of through his ability to delve into the future). Bajiz also does that for Hayt, by activating a 'compulsion' hidden within his mind. Jung also wrote that dwarves were chthonic creatures; chthonic meaning from the earth or the underworld, and there negative aspects were to be tricksters. Bajiz, with his manner of speaking, is clearly a trickster.
Hayt, the reincarnated form of Duncan Idaho, seems to be a representation of the Individuated Man. In the first Dune book, he dies. In this one he returns thanks to some mysterious technology. He then spends the entire novel trying to figure out if he is Hayt or if he is Duncan Idaho. As it turns out, the mysterious order that recreated him installed hidden compulsions in his mind, and intend to use him to assassinate Paul. In the climatic moment where this is supposed to take place, Hayt overcomes his compulsion and unlocks all of his memories of when he was Duncan Idaho. He becomes Idaho once more.
The four stages of alchemy are well represented here. Idaho was killed (the Black). He was washed clean of the impurities of his past life (the White) and given a new body. He is then given to Paul, who constantly has conversations about who he really is and makes him question his identity (the Yellow). And then in the climax he finally overcomes his unconscious compulsions (also represented by the Black) to become a Whole Man; the Union of Past and Present. By doing that he unlocks all of his past memories, and with the skills he was given after his death, he becomes a force to be reckoned with.
His internal battle to rediscover who he was is a fantastic sub-plot that really gives the novel a bit more oomph, and was my favorite part of the entire story.
I would recommend it to anyone who has read anything Jungian, or who has read the first Dune book. It has a lot more internal conflicts than the first, and that might turn some readers away. It did for me the first time I read it. But there are layers to these internal conflicts that in some way make this book more interesting than the first.
Campbell1oo4
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,930
- 6,137
The Crisis of the Modern World by Rene Guenon.
In this short but dense book, Guenon tackles the problems of the modern world. They include profane science, humanism and materialism. Science now only exists for the sake of science, it no longer tries to find any great truth in the universe. Humanism places individuals above everything, including God. Materialism is composed of things you can see and touch, but you can't quantify everything in the Universe, and if you try you will miss out on important things.
These are good points and I agree with them. The Modern West has a psychological issue, but no one is addressing it because we are too materialistic to admit something could be wrong in the psyche.
But Guenon wrote this in the 1920s and it shows. He is also, about certain things, outright wrong. For example, he believes the Catholic Church could be the vehicle to produce an 'elite class' that could steer the West back in the right direction. In a post-Vatican II world, this seems silly. Guenon also claims that protestants do not believe that Jesus Christ was divine, though certain sects absolutely do. He also claims that the traditional East is a perfectly peaceful place that simply wishes to live in peace. Again this was written before the Second World War and the onslaughts of Imperial Japanese aggression.
Who should read this? Anyone who feels our society is too materialistic and godless, or would like to understand that perspective.
In this short but dense book, Guenon tackles the problems of the modern world. They include profane science, humanism and materialism. Science now only exists for the sake of science, it no longer tries to find any great truth in the universe. Humanism places individuals above everything, including God. Materialism is composed of things you can see and touch, but you can't quantify everything in the Universe, and if you try you will miss out on important things.
These are good points and I agree with them. The Modern West has a psychological issue, but no one is addressing it because we are too materialistic to admit something could be wrong in the psyche.
But Guenon wrote this in the 1920s and it shows. He is also, about certain things, outright wrong. For example, he believes the Catholic Church could be the vehicle to produce an 'elite class' that could steer the West back in the right direction. In a post-Vatican II world, this seems silly. Guenon also claims that protestants do not believe that Jesus Christ was divine, though certain sects absolutely do. He also claims that the traditional East is a perfectly peaceful place that simply wishes to live in peace. Again this was written before the Second World War and the onslaughts of Imperial Japanese aggression.
Who should read this? Anyone who feels our society is too materialistic and godless, or would like to understand that perspective.
Randin
Trakanon Raider
- 1,932
- 891
After picking up some old books recently from my mom, I've started doing a second read of The Belgariad by David Eddings. I've finished the first couple books so far, and there's something about these books that makes them just so, I don't know, 'comfortable' to read. They--apparently quite deliberately--use every cliche fantasy trope that exists, and play them to the hilt, although Eddings does have fun with some of them; nobody could accuse them of having a complex story, but they're just nice to read. A good choice if you're looking for some fantasy that doesn't require a heavy investment from the reader.
- 1
Campbell1oo4
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
- 1,930
- 6,137