Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard

machineman said:

I"m sorry... I"m not a WoW fanboy, but you can"t be serious.

It"s not even a discussion that Blizzarad has people who can make great GAMES. They do it time and again.... they know what their doing.

Sigil has engineers writing stories, engineers doing 3D modeling, engineers doing lighting, engineers working on animations, and engineers doing art direction. Blizzard on the other hand has artists and the appropriate professionals working on their craft in each individual area... it"s obvious to 8 million people the quality of this game.

Not denying WoW is simple to play, that"s part of the draw. But it"s also a professionally done game with an expertly crafted interface, whereas Vanguard continues to feel like a college project from a group of mediocre students.

You call them hacks? And you do what in the game industry again?

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I"ve said nothing about VG.

It is obvious that Blizzard has managed to hire a lot of talented individuals, and a lot of retards. The inability to maintain any kind of coherence or plot between zones. The pocket-areas which don"t belong anywhere. The endless upgrades to two slots while the rest get ignored. It"s like they don"t have a meeting where people sit down with their notes and compare. This has lead to a bizarre mix of high quality, functional things and low quality crap.

I have realized that WoW is incredibly formulaic, derivative, and without soul. It"s success is a conflation of many issues, not the least of which is that Blizzardexcelsat slick presentation.

vurt said:

You rebel you.

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I love hilarious sarcasm. Keep up the good work.

Turzem said:

I"ve said nothing about VG.

It is obvious that Blizzard has managed to hire a lot of talented individuals, and a lot of retards. The inability to maintain any kind of coherence or plot between zones. The pocket-areas which don"t belong anywhere. The endless upgrades to two slots while the rest get ignored. It"s like they don"t have a meeting where people sit down with their notes and compare. This has lead to a bizarre mix of high quality, functional things and low quality crap.

I have realized that WoW is incredibly formulaic, derivative, and without soul. It"s success is a conflation of many issues, not the least of which is that Blizzardexcelsat slick presentation.

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The problem isn"t that you"re critical, it"s that you"re rabidly critical. I think WoW is boring, but I appreciate the fact that it is a quality game--not my game, but it"s well done (especially relative to the other crap out there).

You know how there are those rabid fanboys who irrationally defend a game? You"re at the other end of the spectrum, and it"s just as ridiculous.

Turzem said:

I"ve said nothing about VG.

It is obvious that Blizzard has managed to hire a lot of talented individuals, and a lot of retards. The inability to maintain any kind of coherence or plot between zones. The pocket-areas which don"t belong anywhere. The endless upgrades to two slots while the rest get ignored. It"s like they don"t have a meeting where people sit down with their notes and compare. This has lead to a bizarre mix of high quality, functional things and low quality crap.

I have realized that WoW is incredibly formulaic, derivative, and without soul. It"s success is a conflation of many issues, not the least of which is that Blizzardexcelsat slick presentation.



I love hilarious sarcasm. Keep up the good work.

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Seems more like you want WoW to be like that instead of having experienced it as truly being that way. And now you can"t really be honest without looking like a hypocrite. The stuff you"re saying about the game isn"t entirely accurate. Kinda sounds like some random shit you just say about something to appear as someone who knows what their talking about. It"s like the movie reviews where some overpaid idiot says a movie is, "joyously refreshing".

WoW definately has a story to it and if you bother reading quests and paying attention then you can appreciate the work they"ve done. All of it isn"t contained within each zone either. The only way anyone could possibly say that with a straight face is to either not play WoW and lie or go out of their way to skip things.

This also reminds me of the "WoW has no community" bullshit. Of course it does. Jaded assholes who are too used to EQ1 where they were part of an established community don"t want to put forth any effort to help build or be a part of a new one find it easier to believe no community exists. So yeah, WoW has no soul. That must be it.

Turzem said:

It is obvious that Blizzard has managed to hire a lot of talented individuals, and a lot of retards.The inability to maintain any kind of coherence or plot between zones.The pocket-areas which don"t belong anywhere. The endless upgrades to two slots while the rest get ignored. It"s like they don"t have a meeting where people sit down with their notes and compare. This has lead to a bizarre mix of high quality, functional things and low quality crap.

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And you claim to have played WoW? I can"t speak for the Horde side, but Alliance zones have quests and storylines leading to and from one another. The Defias, Dark Iron dwarves, troggs, furbolgs, twilight hammer, corruption from the Burning Legion invasion, etc. There is a definite flow of plots and lore from one zone to another if you gather up all the quests and pay attention to what they say.

WoW is definitely more polished, and it should be based on the amount of time and money they threw at it. That being said, different strokes for different folks. Its all good, dudes.

Mkopec1 said:

WoW is definitely more polished, and it should be based on the amount of time and money they threw at it. That being said, different strokes for different folks. Its all good, dudes.

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Heh, possibly not the best excuse to use for WoW vs VG, but yeah like I said earlier - if people are having fun...great. Enjoy yourselves.

EmiliaEQ said:

In WoW it was faster, safer, more efficient to Solo.
Why the fuck even bother grouping ?

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Because it"s fun? Some people (see above) need to be all but forced to do something in order to do it. You don"t always need some carrot dangled in front of you to do something. Some people will do things if not onlybecause they like to do it.It"s a safe bet that the people that bitch that they solo"d all the time in WoW and hated it 1) never actually tried to get a group or 2) played on some super low-pop server. I leveled a lock to 60 on Garona (a very Horde starved server) a few months ago and did almost every dungeon up to Uldaman 2-3 times.

That said, I agree that WoW did not promote grouping enough. Forced grouping is very bad, but you do want to encourage it. In my perfect WoW, XP from outdoors grinding/questing would be cut by at least 25%, if not 40-50%. XP gained from killing elite mobs would be increased substantially substantially and/or the group XP penalty would be drastically lowered. Every dungeon would have repeatable, experience giving quests. Outright discouraging grouping from a efficiency standpoint is stupid and they could have easily kept their mass appeal without making soloing as superior (efficiency wise) as it is now.

On topic : I think VG gets shit on so much because a lot had high hopes for it (I didn"t) and because Brad came here hyping it up to be the bestest game ever, when the truth was it was very "meh" from almost all reports. Also, several people proclaimed the crash-and-burn of VG on release and probably feel a need to somehow justify the fact that it... hasn"t.

As for me, I"ll try it when a free trial comes out. BC is consuming every waking moment right now so I don"t see giving it a fair shake. Also, from what little I played in Beta, I was absolutely not impressed. The graphics were very "meh" even for the few seconds I"d look around at high quality, my character looked like a kid with a Goblin mask on, and the combat was flat (Rouge.) Crafting showed some promise (liked it more than WoW"s, which isn"t saying a lot) but was annoyed by the constant "critical error" things. The crafting (which is why I"d play VG; I highly dislike being all but forced to group) didn"t draw me in like it did in SW:G either. Hopefully some detailed reports will start coming in about crafters and the economy once things start to settle in (*hint hint*.)

I"m the first to agree that WoW is more polished. But more polished is not a synonym for better. It is a synonym for less bugs and more chrome.

As has been stated approximately 1245x on this board VG PvE is a 90% unpolished group orientated game, WoW is a 90% polished solo orientated game.

So if someone prefers group orientated MMOs they will prefer VG PvE -- despite its current bugs -- unless they have previously committed themselves to hating all things from SOE/Sigil/Brad or (caveat coming) they are just sick to death of fantasy MMOs generally (which lets face it is understandable after EQ/WoW/FFXI/Etc). If someone prefers solo MMOs, they will prefer WoW.

Edit: Re: Malakie"s post. Crafting and Dip are pretty solo right now but Diplomacy is moving to groups/raids and high-crafting will supposedly require guild resources for rare drops and presumably multiple crafters making different parts (artificer makes handle for mace -- blacksmith uses handle to craft the rest of the mace -- etc).

For me i liked the forced grouping thing. I mean, there should be a few classes that can solo, but i dont think every class should be able too. That was the huge thing that turned me off on WoW. If it was more focused on grouping together, i may have played it longer.

I am still finding Vanguard to be very fun, probably the most fun i have had in a MMO in a long time.

Like someone said different stroke, for different folks.

Morderick said:

Because a bunch of 3-4 scrotum heads...

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Graphic.

Morderick said:

The game is awesome, it"s much better than those post made them sound like.

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Opinion.

Morderick said:

It has far more potential than WoW ever had/has.

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Opinion. Dubious opinion, at that, considering one game has 8 million accounts and the other will be WILDLY lucky to hit 800,000.

Morderick said:

The animations are fine, the world is huge, there is content, the classes are fun, the dungeons rules and are freaking big.

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The world is huge, I will give you that. And there is content. Whether the content is good is debatable. The rest is pure opinion.

Morderick said:

It had a decent launch and the game will become so much better with time.

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One good plus that most people will agree with. They handled the launch well. As they should, as this is at least the second go-round for most of the team.

Morderick said:

Screw all the turds.

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You screw turds? TMI, bro.

Druixx said:

Graphic.
Opinion. Dubious opinion, at that, considering one game has 8 million accounts and the other will be WILDLY lucky to hit 800,000.

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Potential as in great game not as in 8 million accounts.

The world is huge, I will give you that. And there is content. Whether the content is good is debatable. The rest is pure opinion.

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No. Overall the content is very, very good. Not all of the content of course -- I still think a couple of starting areas area craptastic. But WoW has nothing like the Tomb of Lord Tsand weapons quest at the same level -- or any level pre-endgame. And don"t give me the pure opinion crap -- that"s just a tool to try to sabotage an argument.

There is objectively good and bad content -- we have all played a lot of MMOs we all know what qualifes as good and what qualifeis as bad.

Now whether you prefer a type of content (solo, group, raid, crafting, PVP BGS, etc) to another type is an opinion.

kcxiv said:

For me i liked the forced grouping thing. I mean, there should be a few classes that can solo, but i dont think every class should be able too. That was the huge thing that turned me off on WoW. If it was more focused on grouping together, i may have played it longer.

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But why does it need to be forced grouping? Why take options away instead of giving them?

Soloing should be an option for all classes. Sometimes you don"t have long to play. Sometimes you don"t get a group right away. Sometimes you just want to play without dealing with the hassle of finding/forming a group. You should still be able to advance your character. However, in a MMO, this should not be the preferred method. There needs to be big enough incentives to encourage you to group, XP being the main one.

You can have a game with plenty of grouping without destroying soloing. There is plenty of room for both.

tad10 said:

Crafting and Dip are pretty solo right now but Diplomacy is moving to groups/raids and high-crafting will supposedly require guild resources for rare drops and presumably multiple crafters making different parts (artificer makes handle for mace -- blacksmith uses handle to craft the rest of the mace -- etc).

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That"s how it should work, IMO. For low end and normal stuff, each crafter should be able to get by on what they can make solo. To make the higher end items should usually require materials from other crafters (crafter-crafter dependency.) For the uber items, mats should only be obtainable from the hard-to-get-to places; Draconite metal which only grows from Dragon"s dung, for example.

Diplomacy could work in there as well. Say you have a mine with Frogmurs which are normally hostile. You can either have some guild keep it clear while you mine it and take it out (time consuming) or have a Diplomat work on relations with the Frogmurs so that you can buy it... or better yet, trade for it.

Druixx said:

dumb shit about opinions

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Eight million people are wrong about WoW cuz its all opinions brah, dey dont mattah yessss

Malakie Torsade said:

Diplomacy could work in there as well. Say you have a mine with Frogmurs which are normally hostile. You can either have some guild keep it clear while you mine it and take it out (time consuming) or have a Diplomat work on relations with the Frogmurs so that you can buy it... or better yet, trade for it.

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I"m pretty sure crafter-to-crafter is going in, but I agree on the last tier stuff. Should be pretty hard to get, and I really hope they start using diplomacy more, but more w/ a risk vs reward thing. Being stripped of a title or dieing if you lose, something like that.

people keep using the 8 million subscribers fact but you guys havent really thought it through. the difference between anything sigil can come up and wow is that warcraft/blizzard is famous throughout the world. for fucks sake korea has a STARCRAFT TELEVISION CHANNEL. of course its going to sweep the asian countries. couple that with americans that just wanna go on once in a while and accomplish alot of things and you will get huge numbers.

THere is a fabulous grouping experience in WOW. Most people are just too self centered/interested in lewt, levels, etc, to actually take the time to do it.

When given the choice, all these people that bitch about WOW being a solo game made the CHOICE to solo then continue to bitch about it to this day like they didn"t have any options. Many of the people that raved about communities and the social aspect of games don"t seem to be able to form a social connection without being forced to like in EQ. It has nothing to do with the game and everything to do with the person playing it.

Could WOW have created more incentives to group?? Certainly. But what it did create was an opportunity to see just how hypocrital many of the groupers actually were when they were given a choice between grouping and soloing.

vynde said:

people keep using the 8 million subscribers fact but you guys havent really thought it through. the difference between anything sigil can come up and wow is that warcraft/blizzard is famous throughout the world. for fucks sake korea has a STARCRAFT TELEVISION CHANNEL. of course its going to sweep the asian countries. couple that with americans that just wanna go on once in a while and accomplish alot of things and you will get huge numbers.

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egads....thats a stupid one that has been beaten into submission here so many times it silly to even bring it up. The name brought some people in...the game itself kept them.

If the name/IP was the only reason for success then SWG should have about 20million accounts...right?

Malakie Torsade said:

But why does it need to be forced grouping? Why take options away instead of giving them?

Soloing should be an option for all classes. Sometimes you don"t have long to play. Sometimes you don"t get a group right away. Sometimes you just want to play without dealing with the hassle of finding/forming a group. You should still be able to advance your character. However, in a MMO, this should not be the preferred method. There needs to be big enough incentives to encourage you to group, XP being the main one.

You can have a game with plenty of grouping without destroying soloing. There is plenty of room for both.



That"s how it should work, IMO. For low end and normal stuff, each crafter should be able to get by on what they can make solo. To make the higher end items should usually require materials from other crafters (crafter-crafter dependency.) For the uber items, mats should only be obtainable from the hard-to-get-to places; Draconite metal which only grows from Dragon"s dung, for example.

Diplomacy could work in there as well. Say you have a mine with Frogmurs which are normally hostile. You can either have some guild keep it clear while you mine it and take it out (time consuming) or have a Diplomat work on relations with the Frogmurs so that you can buy it... or better yet, trade for it.

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I will be the first person to agree that I do not like forced grouping. In fact, I despise it. I"ve soloed my live character up to 10 now, and I am having fun. However, where Vanguard shines is in small group/full group play, and I am fully aware of this. The interaction between classes adds a dimension to the game that you will not get soloing. To get the MOST out of the game, you are most certainly encouraged to group up. There should also be complete progression paths for soloers at all levels. Granted, this is simply not going to be remarkably fun, because it tends to be a grind when you are by yourself for long stretches of time. It has been my goal to make sure that we have goal driven content for you at all levels whether you are solo or grouped. This requires that an insane amount of content be created to support everyone. We have already found some deficient areas in the mid teens that we are currently filling in, and the rest of the team is working on fleshing out the level 35+ areas. I feel the best way to keep people interested, is by having acheivable goals at every outpost along th progression path. Keep in mind though, we did not strive for "perfect" balance. Some classes can and will solo better than others. You may find yourself soloing creatures that are 2 levels below you, but you will always be able to advance. From what I can tell, the most popular way to advance right now is in small duo/trio groups questing/exping on 3 dot camps. We do sympathize with the soloer; when I get home from work after 15 hours I just want to be left the hell alone sometimes and just enjoy some solo activities.

Ossoi said:

Damn you mean an MMO forum actually has threads about a new MMO! Shock horror. You totally forget that for the past 2 years this forum has essentially been a WoW forum...

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14 Days.... after that this site will change from the most popular EQ fan site on the internet to the most popular World of Warcraft fan site on the internet. I"m done playing ball with you useless fuckers... it"s my turn.

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^^^^^^^

Is there a online book manual of the game? I think there is somethings i am not doing right as far as combat goes.