He argued budget didnt matter. WoW cost more than any other MMO by a huge margin in most cases, thus being inefficient by his logic.Druixx said:
Why all the nerd rage against Vanguard
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so in a 1000 post thread talking about how the hype was one of the reasons VG flopped you begin to outrageously hype raid content? thats just asking for it...Aradune Mithara said:How massive and detailed they are -- I"ve personally never seen dungeons with such potential in terms of gameplay coupled with their sheer size and the awesome artwork. They are some of the last dungeons we made and the artists really had the tools down pat. And with the designers tools also that much more mature, what they will be able to do and are already starting to do in these dungeons is pretty mind blowing. I was talking with Tagad a while ago who is populating the City of Brass and it"s going to be crazy He did some really cool dungeons in Velious with the old EQ 1 tools -- I can"t wait to see what he and other designers will be doing in the raid dungeons in Vanguard.
Stevon_foh
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Another thing that comes to mind Brad is what happened to bringing back the things that made EQ great? And I"m not talking about the grind ;DAradune Mithara said:I don"t have a solid date, but I know it"s already being worked on. Basically, as fast as we can, but we also need to make sure the low and mid levels are a bit more solid too. The majority of the design team is cleaning things up and balancing and making the game even more fun, with the minority working on new content including raid content. This will change soon, however, and the majority will be working on high level and raid content.
I"d have to say that to this day nothing stands out in my mind as an exceptional MMO experience like Velious. Nothing comes close. The dungeons. The bosses. The faction system that really really brought you into the story. The environment design. The scripted encounters (the 10 ring quest series is still second to none in my book). This is the expansion that all others should be measured against in my opinion.
Where is that in Vanguard? Was there something in that design period that just can"t be captured again? What those of us who watched Vanguard from very early on were anticipating it was this. Well none of it materialized, at least that anyone knows of.
I think that this is where a lot of the anger stems from. Many of us were very passionate about a return to those days and were convinced, mainly from promises made by you in various forums, that that kind of thing was on it"s way back... minus the "tedium". The rest of the angst comes from the other issues raised here in other posts.
teneran_foh
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You can solo all the way to 50, on any class. Not saying its optimal (it isn"t), or as easy for every class, but you can do it. What else do you want Sigil to provide? The game is group oriented for sure but you CAN solo anytime you want to, or don"t feel like or have the time to group.Stevon said:2. The player should be able to play, productively, based on the players schedule not everyone elses. Here"s where Vanguard has a real problem. First, most players will form certain group attachments at some point (unless they simply hate or ineffective at dealing with others). In Vanguard if you end up falling behind your "friends" it"s very likely you will find it more and more difficult to find groups. And unfortunately grouping is THE most effective way to advance, bar none. The solution here is obvious, the game needs to provide more solo friendly content, if for nothing else than to help those left behind catch up.
3. Punishment is not motivating. Vanguard takes punishment to the next level. If you are failing an encounter, so solo or duo, and you want to escape... good luck. Running away is rarely an option as pretty much any mob can chase you down. Then where does that leave you? With a corpse recovery (why this is back I"ll never understand) and exp loss. And a lot of frustration.
Punishment to the next level? Oh please, can you be a bit more dramatic? If you die, sure, you have a CR but as long as you recover your body without the altar you get very close to 100% of that XP back. To date I"ve leveled a rogue to 18 and disciple to 26 and sum total, I"m had to altar my corpse maybe 8 times. Even then, i only lost 10% each time, which while it stung, wasn"t in the grand scheme of things that bad. Maybe I lost 30ish minutes of time to gain that XP back each time.
Now, if you want to talk about punishment, let"s talk about EQ1. When I first leveled in that game, especially early on, when I died i had in some cases a CR that could take the better part of an hour (hi melee that couldn"t bind) and lost quite a bit of XP, like half a night"s worth or more. That was punishment.
The problem is you want to be able to play solo, super casual and be on the same level of people who play more, have more friends, whatever. Sorry, doesn"t work that way. Sure, I"d like to look like a swimsuit model but I don"t starve myself and workout 4 hours a day .... but I guess by your logic i can bitch about it.
You really should just play WoW. And I don"t mean that as a put down on WoW but that"s the type of game you want, where the only reason you group is instances or raids, and otherwise its all solo friendly and very casual.
Budget doesn"t matter, it"s what you do with the budget given. If WoW had flopped, then you could say they were inefficient.Dashal said:He argued budget didnt matter. WoW cost more than any other MMO by a huge margin in most cases, thus being inefficient by his logic.
Stevon_foh
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VG was a LOT of fun near the beginning of Beta 3... then the nerf bat hit. Exp was nerfed. Player power and mob power "dps and hps/defense" were raised a LOT. From then on it was down hill. The game went from being very enjoyable (even with the other issues) to being a grind and tedious, just like the worse of EQ. At that point I basically reached 30 I was about 28 at the change) and gave up. It got no better at release, of course, and after 18 or so levels I was done.Erronius said:I agree with this pretty much. What was being released and spoon-fed to the public was totally different from the reality in Beta. People got pissed when it was realized that Sigil was trying to obfuscate the issue, and the cry of "Just wait until the NDA is lifted" was passed around like a balloon at a Dead show. Then the NDA was lifted and a new round of complaints started up, with the response of "Wait until release, it"s still Beta after all!". Then release hit amidst a lot of nay saying, and then people were told to just give VG somemoretime.
Now, I"m not jumping those people that are playing VG happily, more power to you. But for those of you that do play, and cannot grasp why people refuse to purchase VG, let me try to say this as objectively as possible:
The last year of VG has been drama on top of drama on top of drama. Even with all the beta bs, people were willing to give VG some leeway at release, but VG was, predictably, not as ready as was claimed. Still, people bought VG and braced themselves for a few months of bugs and other issues. Yet, the drama hasn"t ceased, now you even have the station pass change and people wishing they hadn"t bought VG in the first place. Sigil is planning on a large ad campaign, but seriously, how much of VG"s history will that be able to counter? I also predict that something else will pop up within the next 6 months that will re-ignite the debates and drama, it is almost a given. The advertising won"t make up for all the problems, it can"t, but I still hope it helps out VG...because, imo, it needs all the help it can get (from a sales and reputation standpoint).
IMO the only chance VG had to be a "huge" success was an awesome release, or to be so awe inspiring that people would leave other games wholesale. Neither happened, and I seriously doubt VG will hit 500k. For Sigils sake, and the sake of those playing VG, I hope I am wrong. But as it stands now, it doesn"t seem to have garnered the image of being a "Must play" game as was hoped, and there are simply other games out there that people would rather play. I"m sure I could pay for it, play it, and have at least a modicum of enjoyment over the next year, but there are many other games I can do that in, and they appeal to me more than VG. And that isWITHOUTfactoring in the drama, rumors, bugs, vitriol and angst.
"Tanin no fukou wa mitsu no aji" , because I"m getting tired of seeing, and using myself, the term schadenfreude. I"d be lying if I said that didn"t factor into this, but unfortunately it does. A lot of people made dire predictions and were flamed for it (especially on the VG forums), but many were correct in a broader sense, if not on actual individual issues as well.
It almost seems like some people expect others to simply give VG a free pass, and to just forget all that has happened and go into VG blindly. Human nature being what it is, I seriously doubt that is going to happen on any large scale, especially when it involves forking money over to a game that has generated the divisions in the gaming community that VG has.
Stevon_foh
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Exactly. I"m sure LOTRO has a much smaller budget than WoW (but have no facts to back that up) and it seems to be going very well so far. Playstyle aside.Twobit Whore said:Budget doesn"t matter, it"s what you do with the budget given.
Speaking of Nerd-Rage and Vanguard something I was glad to have left in other games showed its face in VG over the weekend. Some tool was spamming the regionchat on Shidreth for a while Saturday trying to get people to join his Zihurr queen group ( QueenSTILLisn"t spawning Nino... ). After what must have been close to an hour of the same spiel he resorted to the following...
"Ant Hill group looking for more. We have real live, young, teenage girl in the group. If you join now I will let you into a free ventrilo chat room and you can listen to a teenage girl talking"
...and got apparently a bunch of replies within a minute or two.
I still haven"t decided which was more disturbing. The fact that that kind of thing is used to get people to group in open channels, or the fact that it apparently worked.
"Ant Hill group looking for more. We have real live, young, teenage girl in the group. If you join now I will let you into a free ventrilo chat room and you can listen to a teenage girl talking"
...and got apparently a bunch of replies within a minute or two.
I still haven"t decided which was more disturbing. The fact that that kind of thing is used to get people to group in open channels, or the fact that it apparently worked.
Stevon_foh
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That"s the problem. You can solo ANY game to max level, even if it"s 2x worse than Vanguard... but who in their right mind would want to? Just because you CAN does not mean it"s even remotely enjoyable. And unless you are a highly skilled warlock soloing in Vanguard is not at all appealing.teneran said:You can solo all the way to 50, on any class. Not saying its optimal (it isn"t), or as easy for every class, but you can do it. What else do you want Sigil to provide? The game is group oriented for sure but you CAN solo anytime you want to, or don"t feel like or have the time to group.
Punishment to the next level? Oh please, can you be a bit more dramatic? If you die, sure, you have a CR but as long as you recover your body without the altar you get very close to 100% of that XP back. To date I"ve leveled a rogue to 18 and disciple to 26 and sum total, I"m had to altar my corpse maybe 8 times. Even then, i only lost 10% each time, which while it stung, wasn"t in the grand scheme of things that bad. Maybe I lost 30ish minutes of time to gain that XP back each time.
Now, if you want to talk about punishment, let"s talk about EQ1. When I first leveled in that game, especially early on, when I died i had in some cases a CR that could take the better part of an hour (hi melee that couldn"t bind) and lost quite a bit of XP, like half a night"s worth or more. That was punishment.
The problem is you want to be able to play solo, super casual and be on the same level of people who play more, have more friends, whatever. Sorry, doesn"t work that way. Sure, I"d like to look like a swimsuit model but I don"t starve myself and workout 4 hours a day .... but I guess by your logic i can bitch about it.
You really should just play WoW. And I don"t mean that as a put down on WoW but that"s the type of game you want, where the only reason you group is instances or raids, and otherwise its all solo friendly and very casual.
Lastly solo is not the same as casual, and people need to stop confusing the two.
As for "just go play WoW" you guys are going to do more to kill the game than anything else. Because guess what, that"s exactly what people are going to do. Be careful of what you wish for cause you just might get it.
As for my comments regarding keeping up with friends... it"s not that I or anyone believe that "play less gain the same" makes sense. However Vanguard feels more like "play less never catch up" without an even greater commitment going forward.
No one want"s a return to WoW. That"s why we even continue to troll these posts about Vangaurd, even while we"re stopped playing. Because some of us hold a thread of hope that there will be changes that make returning viable. It"s unlikely but who knows, EQ brought in instanced raids (thank god), so stranger things have happened.
Dude, give it a rest. Vanguard is not WoW, everbody knows that. The game is not based on being able to quickly and easily solo level. You may think thats a bad game mechanic/decision but it"s the way the game has been built.Stevon said:That"s the problem. You can solo ANY game to max level, even if it"s 2x worse than Vanguard... but who in their right mind would want to? Just because you CAN does not mean it"s even remotely enjoyable. And unless you are a highly skilled warlock soloing in Vanguard is not at all appealing.
Lastly solo is not the same as casual, and people need to stop confusing the two.
As for "just go play WoW" you guys are going to do more to kill the game than anything else. Because guess what, that"s exactly what people are going to do. Be careful of what you wish for cause you just might get it.
As for my comments regarding keeping up with friends... it"s not that I or anyone believe that "play less gain the same" makes sense. However Vanguard feels more like "play less never catch up" without an even greater commitment going forward.
No one want"s a return to WoW. That"s why we even continue to troll these posts about Vangaurd, even while we"re stopped playing. Because some of us hold a thread of hope that there will be changes that make returning viable. It"s unlikely but who knows, EQ brought in instanced raids (thank god), so stranger things have happened.
On the flip side, the game is also no completely built upon only grouping to advance. You can easily progress to about level 25 doing almost no grouping and even very little monotonous grinding. What more can people say.
The death penalty is not bad, its a balance between stinging to being almost laughable at time. It only really stings if you are doing dungeons. You are usually doing dungeons to get the best gear. Seems to make sense to me. If you are not doing dungeons then you are doing overland stuff. You die you spend a few minutes running to your body and lose 1% EXP. Oh no the horror. So far 1% EXP usually equates to 2-3 mobs killed.
In terms of gear, yes if you don"t have a full group you will not have the best gear. Um okay Vanguard Devs have always stated they really believe in Risk vs Reward. Plus through the 50 levels having the best gear really isn"t that important. You honestly think that being outfitted in yellow/orange gear at level 25 is going to make a difference. please.
Dashal_foh
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If that were true WoW could have done what it did for 17 dollars and 52 cents. Of course budget matters. It"s not a guarantee of success, is the point I think you all are trying to make.Twobit Whore said:Budget doesn"t matter, it"s what you do with the budget given. If WoW had flopped, then you could say they were inefficient.
teneran_foh
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Its certainly a matter of balance for sure. Any game can be too much of a grind to where the PITA factor becomes too high, agreed.Stevon said:That"s the problem. You can solo ANY game to max level, even if it"s 2x worse than Vanguard... but who in their right mind would want to? Just because you CAN does not mean it"s even remotely enjoyable. And unless you are a highly skilled warlock soloing in Vanguard is not at all appealing.
Lastly solo is not the same as casual, and people need to stop confusing the two.
As for "just go play WoW" you guys are going to do more to kill the game than anything else. Because guess what, that"s exactly what people are going to do. Be careful of what you wish for cause you just might get it.
As for my comments regarding keeping up with friends... it"s not that I or anyone believe that "play less gain the same" makes sense. However Vanguard feels more like "play less never catch up" without an even greater commitment going forward.
No one want"s a return to WoW. That"s why we even continue to troll these posts about Vangaurd, even while we"re stopped playing. Because some of us hold a thread of hope that there will be changes that make returning viable. It"s unlikely but who knows, EQ brought in instanced raids (thank god), so stranger things have happened.
Here"s the problem .... where that balance point lies is hard for people to agree on. So I guess where I am coming from is I just don"t want to see the game drift towards being a WoW clone to boost numbers. I hear you"re also not wanting this to happen, we just may disagree on where that line lies.
To be fair, I don"t think anything I can say, or attitude I can take, is killing Vanguard. I doubt i have any significant influence with Bard or any of the producers/developers that may read this board. I"m just a normal guy with a point of view.
Stevon_foh
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Well one thing you say is true. The death penalty isn"t bad if you recover your corpse. But that"s the rub. If you do anything truely "challenging" then corpse recovery is a real issue. If you chose to forgo recovery then exp loss is significant.Vaxxx said:Dude, give it a rest. Vanguard is not WoW, everbody knows that. The game is not based on being able to quickly and easily solo level. You may think thats a bad game mechanic/decision but it"s the way the game has been built.
On the flip side, the game is also no completely built upon only grouping to advance. You can easily progress to about level 25 doing almost no grouping and even very little monotonous grinding. What more can people say.
The death penalty is not bad, its a balance between stinging to being almost laughable at time. It only really stings if you are doing dungeons. You are usually doing dungeons to get the best gear. Seems to make sense to me. If you are not doing dungeons then you are doing overland stuff. You die you spend a few minutes running to your body and lose 1% EXP. Oh no the horror. So far 1% EXP usually equates to 2-3 mobs killed.
In terms of gear, yes if you don"t have a full group you will not have the best gear. Um okay Vanguard Devs have always stated they really believe in Risk vs Reward. Plus through the 50 levels having the best gear really isn"t that important. You honestly think that being outfitted in yellow/orange gear at level 25 is going to make a difference. please.
Stevon_foh
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I"d agree the line is a big part of it. The problem I think is in taking a grouping first approach. I think people equate that with WoW"s problem (problem in that certain people dislike the "effort" aspect of it).teneran said:Its certainly a matter of balance for sure. Any game can be too much of a grind to where the PITA factor becomes too high, agreed.
Here"s the problem .... where that balance point lies is hard for people to agree on. So I guess where I am coming from is I just don"t want to see the game drift towards being a WoW clone to boost numbers. I hear you"re also not wanting this to happen, we just may disagree on where that line lies.
To be fair, I don"t think anything I can say, or attitude I can take, is killing Vanguard. I doubt i have any significant influence with Bard or any of the producers/developers that may read this board. I"m just a normal guy with a point of view.
By making the game so favor grouping over solo play (which is NOT synonymous with casual) you risk isolating players due to availability and timing issues. Forcing grouping for raid or group boss encounters makes perfect sense. But making grouping the best advancement mechanism is a problem imo. That"s where the main change needs to come.
Sithro_foh
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I think what Sigil should do now is not try to hype Vanguard right now. They should work on getting the game into a solid state (much like EQII and WoW are, now).
THEN, offer some kind of promotion and give people a free trial to try out Vanguard. At least this way, they"ll not hate the game due to bugs, etc.
THEN, offer some kind of promotion and give people a free trial to try out Vanguard. At least this way, they"ll not hate the game due to bugs, etc.
Yep.Twobit Whore said:Budget doesn"t matter, it"s what you do with the budget given. If WoW had flopped, then you could say they were inefficient.
You do the best you can with what you have and try and come up with creative ways to bridge the gap. Money can provide choices and alternatives to problems, but it does not guarantee success.
Elleffgee_foh
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I wanted to disagree with your two points above based on my personal experience.Stevon said:2. The player should be able to play, productively, based on the players schedule not everyone elses. Here"s where Vanguard has a real problem. First, most players will form certain group attachments at some point (unless they simply hate or ineffective at dealing with others). In Vanguard if you end up falling behind your "friends" it"s very likely you will find it more and more difficult to find groups. And unfortunately grouping is THE most effective way to advance, bar none. The solution here is obvious, the game needs to provide more solo friendly content, if for nothing else than to help those left behind catch up.
3. Punishment is not motivating. Vanguard takes punishment to the next level. If you are failing an encounter, so solo or duo, and you want to escape... good luck. Running away is rarely an option as pretty much any mob can chase you down. Then where does that leave you? With a corpse recovery (why this is back I"ll never understand) and exp loss. And a lot of frustration.
1. I"m pretty much soloing entirely rather than grouping. Why? I like it better, and it"s a lot of fun in this game. There is little need to group if you don"t want to. There are multiple, different areas with quests intended for each range of 2 to 3 levels - and you can choose different areas from different continents. You can"t just grind exp as a soloer, however - you do quests at the same time, which all require you to kill mobs that can be soloed.
So when you kill 10 each of mob X Y and Z, or 25 of a particular mob, or you harvest 12 each of 6 different types of flowers, or whatever - each of those quests, if at or above your level, will basically double the exp you got from killing the mobs needed to complete the quest. And then there will be second or third level quests from the same quest NPCs after you hand in the first ones, and the new quests are about one level higher than the first quests, which is just about right, since you should have earned a level by doing the first round.
On average, I get 3 to 4 percent exp from one of these adventure quests, if I do whe even con or higher ones. Usually, you can do 20 or more of these quests in each area, and they are all based on level appropriate mobs. So when you max out an area by doing all its quests, you"ve usually also out leveled the area. This questing appears very well synchronized to leveling, and it provides a steady stream of questing intended to level you past that area, and onto the next area.
And you figure out what area to go to next because at least one quest from the current area will tell you to go deliver something to a NPC elsewhere in the world. When you max out on quests, you do that final quest to find the NPC in some remote place, and surprise, there are 20+ more quests you can do for your next stage of leveling, and so on. I"ve had no problem progressing to level 32 now by doing exactly this - and it has been very fun and interesting.
While soloing and enjoying myself gaining at least 2 or 3 levels per week, I also see people complaining about not being able to find groups in the server channels. Why don"t these people do what I do, which is put up a LFG tag while doing the solo quests in an area? When I do that, I eventually always get a group offer, and am not just sitting around stressing about why I don"t have a group. Also, I think grouping in VG is much like in every other game I"ve played - some people are just better at getting groups than others. And this is usually because some people are good at leadership and putting groups together, and others aren"t. But I sincerely believe that VG has room for both types. Just do solo quests until you can find a group, and your time will always be fully occupied and you"ll get great exp at the same time.
2. Regarding this comment: "Running away is rarely an option as pretty much any mob can chase you down" - I"m sorry, I very strongly disagree and don"t understand how you can see the situation like this. You can buy a 30 speed horse beginning at level 10, for only 12 silver. You should have no problem saving two or three times that much just selling the stuff that drops from what you kill as you are leveling up to ten. And you don"t even have any death penalty until level 7 - so at most you are talking about being on foot and having trouble outrunning mobs between levels 7 and 10. Even then, I"ve had no problem, and cannot recall a single death I"ve taken, by using the "sprint" ability to get away from the nub trash mobs - "sprint" will out run all of them, every one as I recall.
My character is from Kojan, and I went to Thestra and ran across the entire continent doing my shaman class quest at level 15. In doing so, I did not take one death, not one, while outrunning mobs up to level 40 in the zones I ran through with my level 10 30 speed quest horse. That includes running though the gates of Trengal Keep at level 15 with all mobs up - it was scary and had me on the edge of my seat, but I didn"t die and had no problem outrunning the mobs.
It is just surprising to me reading some of these comments, it feels like I"m playing a different game from other posters.
Thanks
I believe he is talking about pulling a mob, getting some adds, knowing you can"t win and trying to flee. Mount does no good here unless they very recently made it so you can cast your mount in combat.Elleffgee said:2. Regarding this comment: "Running away is rarely an option as pretty much any mob can chase you down" - I"m sorry, I very strongly disagree and don"t understand how you can see the situation like this. You can buy a 30 speed horse beginning at level 10, for only 12 silver. You should have no problem saving two or three times that much just selling the stuff that drops from what you kill as you are leveling up to ten. And you don"t even have any death penalty until level 7 - so at most you are talking about being on foot and having trouble outrunning mobs between levels 7 and 10. Even then, I"ve had no problem, and cannot recall a single death I"ve taken, by using the "sprint" ability to get away from the nub trash mobs - "sprint" will out run all of them, every one as I recall.
My character is from Kojan, and I went to Thestra and ran across the entire continent doing my shaman class quest at level 13. In doing so, I did not take one death, not one, while outrunning mobs up to level 40 in the zones I ran through with my level 10 30 speed quest horse. That includes running though the gates of Trengal Keep at level 13 with all mobs up - it was scary and had me on the edge of my seat, but I didn"t die and had no problem outrunning the mobs.
It is just surprising to me reading some of these comments, it feels like I"m playing a different game from other posters.
Thanks
Shinrai_foh
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I don"t find Vanguard to be that bad. It mostly works (though I have an ATI card) and the game mechanics are competent. The death penalty and grouping demands are also valid, not to the tast of some, but that"s fine too.
However considering this is meant to be the second most expensive MMORPG ever produced (behind WoW) It doesn"t feel very impressive. It all feels pretty plain, a bit clunky and lacks novelty and addictive pull. Sure, the classes are somewhat novel, but for most of them it ends up being a handful of core powers you use repeatedly. And they also made the error of too many classes, too many cities and huge continents which make finding groups difficult.
So I think it"s perfectly fair to call vanguard a failure. While it"s not bad, it isn"t really all that good for the money invested. And the poor subscriptions pretty much guarantee it won"t fund the amount of development required to make it a great game. Nor do I believe much of its subscriber base is deeply attached to the game, I expect them to lose players to boredom or other "shiny" new MMORPG releases.... especially if one or more of them doesn"t suck.
However considering this is meant to be the second most expensive MMORPG ever produced (behind WoW) It doesn"t feel very impressive. It all feels pretty plain, a bit clunky and lacks novelty and addictive pull. Sure, the classes are somewhat novel, but for most of them it ends up being a handful of core powers you use repeatedly. And they also made the error of too many classes, too many cities and huge continents which make finding groups difficult.
So I think it"s perfectly fair to call vanguard a failure. While it"s not bad, it isn"t really all that good for the money invested. And the poor subscriptions pretty much guarantee it won"t fund the amount of development required to make it a great game. Nor do I believe much of its subscriber base is deeply attached to the game, I expect them to lose players to boredom or other "shiny" new MMORPG releases.... especially if one or more of them doesn"t suck.
Naelael_foh
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Queen has been killed.Seths said:Speaking of Nerd-Rage and Vanguard something I was glad to have left in other games showed its face in VG over the weekend. Some tool was spamming the regionchat on Shidreth for a while Saturday trying to get people to join his Zihurr queen group ( QueenSTILLisn"t spawning Nino... ). After what must have been close to an hour of the same spiel he resorted to the following...
"Ant Hill group looking for more. We have real live, young, teenage girl in the group. If you join now I will let you into a free ventrilo chat room and you can listen to a teenage girl talking"
...and got apparently a bunch of replies within a minute or two.
I still haven"t decided which was more disturbing. The fact that that kind of thing is used to get people to group in open channels, or the fact that it apparently worked.
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