Woodworking

  • Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!



    Go here and give us your nominations!
    Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
12,259
11,915
The inside path, on the right, is what I broke a bit on before. The outside path, on the left & deeper, is what I'm running now to prepare to cut the rest of the way down on the inside path.

There was a little chatter at the beginning, but it didn't start getting bad again until I got deeper than the first toolpath and have material on both sides.

View attachment 506502

That looks quite deep, If you're just trying to cut all the way through this isn't a good idea. If you're trying to save the section on the right and discard the section on the left I'd start taking everything out on the left section to give your bit some breathing room. This way you can do small bites out of the section on the right, you have to think that the parts of your bit without any flutes is always going to be basically touching the side of the material, if you have no breathing room to eject the chips you are to get build up and chatter.

Hopefully that makes sense.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
12,259
11,915
This was a bad setup from the start. Do you have a table saw? If youre just trying to cut a square edge, use a table saw or even a jigsaw to get rid of 99% of the waste.

If you can't do that, set your spindle at 20k rpm and 40 inches per minute and clean out the chips between each pass. The side load on that bit (not just the depth) shouldnt be more that maybe 30 thousandths.

Personally, I'd stop where you are, cut off the remainder with the table saw, and clean it up with a hand plane/sander. Is that an option?

I definitely recommend something along this path, I don't know what it is you're exactly doing so I can't recommend much without seeing your end goal and I bet that will be difficult to explain without me being there. Aren't you in DFW?

EDIT: The DFW comment was for Bandwagon, I forgot who I replied too sorry.
 

Bandwagon

Kolohe
<Silver Donator>
24,317
65,415
That's just a super long bit for the setup you have, plus it's thin. I'm kinda surprised it works at all and isn't just a shrapnel machine. Doesn't really look like the right tool for the job.
I don't know what the right tool is, then. This thing was too thick for my table saw when I started, but I guess it's not anymore. It was 3.125in thick originally, but I surfaced it down to about 2.6. I guess I could do the table saw now, but I'm nervous about fucking up the slab. I don't have a lot of experience with the table saw and it's on a folding stand with kind of a shitty fence.

I brought it to the guy at the woodshop to square up for me, but I think he misunderstood what I was asking for. He just lopped off 2x sides, but didn't do an actual 21in square like I asked. Didn't realize it until I got back home.


I'm going to give basic information here that will be broad, please do not take any of this information as an insult to your intelligence. I don't know what you know and I just want you and others to be safe, I'd hate to see anyone here get hurt or killed.

Chatter can be caused by a multitude of issues and these things should be considered first before moving forward with such a large bit/job. Running long bits is dangerous and shouldn't be used unless your machine/collet/spindle are designed to run such things. I believe I have mentioned it here before but I can't remember so I'll just tell it again. We had a guy running a test on the production floor with a large bit that was not designed for the machine/spindle type and caused it to come out of the chuck at a very high RPM, it shot across the floor bouncing all over the place and impaled in his leg barely missing his main artery. We were forbidden to run anything over 2.5" in length unless the machine was surrounded by a bulletproof glass barrier. Be very careful here, just because you have done it before doesn't mean something similar won't happen to you, it just takes once to hurt, maim or kill. Also keep in mind that drywall will not stop something moving so fast, so keep your loved ones safe if you're doing this in your garage. It's some scary shit when you see a bit bouncing around at 18k-20k rpms and having no idea where it's going to go next.

Chatter Main issues
  • Collet depth
    • If you do not have enough of the tool inside the collet this will cause wobble/chatter. This can cause the collet to become worn out and eject the bit. This will also cause your spindle bearings to wear out.
  • Carriage harmonics
    • This is the best way I know how to explain this, if the carriage is not built to withstand the type of pressure being applied at those lengths this will cause the entire carriage to chatter and tear itself apart. Only our largest machines were capable of using such large bits.
  • Spindle size
    • This ties in with the two items above, larger spindles are designed for larger bits. They can withstand the horizontal pressure applied with such lengths. Think of a cheater bar used to bust a nut loose, you're applying a ton more pressure to the bearings/collet/carriage/etc. When using a bit of this length.
  • Bit quality
    • Ensure you are using a good quality bit, if a bit at that length is not balanced properly there is nothing you can do to stop the chatter.
  • Bite size
    • Ensure the cut depth and bite size being cut out per pass are very shallow. This will help reduce chatter.
  • Flutes/chip load/etc.
    • Number of flutes, upcut/downcut, RPM, Cut speed, etc. will all play an important role in reducing chatter.
    • Going too slowly with a cut-speed will cause the bit to bounce off the wood, it will also cause the bit to overheat which can increase the size of the bit and cause it to make more contact with the wood causing even more chatter. This will also burn up/dull the bit very quickly which will compound the issue further.
    • If your bit is a downcut this will also put more pressure/load on the bit which will cause more chatter.

I'm not saying you can't do this, you can. You just need to be careful, very careful. Mechanics will play a huge roll in the chatter, Check all your bolts make sure they are tight, ensure your collet is not worn out, ensure your spindle and collet are designed for such a lengthy bit. if all this looks good you need to experiment with your RPM/Bit Site/Cut Speed until you can reduce chatter, more than likely with a smaller machine and a bit that long you are going to be cutting very slowly. Upcut/Downcut bits can have dramatic effects upon the wobble as well. If you are having to go so slow that it's burning the wood then you may need to re-think your process. If the bit is too long there is simply nothing you can do to prevent chatter and it will have to be cleaned up post process.

The best thing about CNC machines is there is always a undiscovered solution to your problem or a common one. If you plan on cutting things this deep in the future you can always get two pieces that are half as thick and cut them in two jobs then use a dowel pin or whatever to join them back together. You could also try to use a shorter bit to go down as deep as you can to reduce the amount of material you are cutting out then finish out with the longer bit.

As for feed and speed tinkering, I'm not as well versed as others in this field. I typically looked at the Onsrud manual, changed my settings and went on my way unless it sounded funny. Then I'd adjust on the fly until it sounded right, which were typically minor adjustments.

Please be careful.
Thanks Hek. This isn't something I'd be expecting to do regularly. The long bits ARE something I want so I can do deep terrain maps, but those things normally aren't going to be a deep channel with material on either side. I just need the reach. And for the 3d finish toolpaths, the axial cuts are about 0.001in per pass and not an issue. This one is an odd one off. I appreciate the caution though.

This was a bad setup from the start. Do you have a table saw? If youre just trying to cut a square edge, use a table saw or even a jigsaw to get rid of 99% of the waste.

If you can't do that, set your spindle at 20k rpm and 40 inches per minute and clean out the chips between each pass. The side load on that bit (not just the depth) shouldnt be more that maybe 30 thousandths.

Personally, I'd stop where you are, cut off the remainder with the table saw, and clean it up with a hand plane/sander. Is that an option?

It's an option for someone that knows what they're doing and isn't worried about fucking up a $250 slab.

I'll see if I can go real slow and it least get the cut deep enough to where I can use my flush trim router bit on it after cutting it out the rest of the way by hand. I think I'm almost deep enough now for that.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Bandwagon

Kolohe
<Silver Donator>
24,317
65,415
I definitely recommend something along this path, I don't know what it is you're exactly doing so I can't recommend much without seeing your end goal and I bet that will be difficult to explain without me being there. Aren't you in DFW?

EDIT: The DFW comment was for Bandwagon, I forgot who I replied too sorry.
This is what I'm working on, except i went a different route with the legs.

1703967416095.png
 

Captain Suave

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
5,266
8,959
I don't know what the right tool is, then. This thing was too thick for my table saw when I started, but I guess it's not anymore. It was 3.125in thick originally, but I surfaced it down to about 2.6. I guess I could do the table saw now, but I'm nervous about fucking up the slab. I don't have a lot of experience with the table saw and it's on a folding stand with kind of a shitty fence.

Bandsaw is the right power tool for deep through cuts. If you don't have one but do have a table saw, it's very common to take a max depth partial cut on the table saw, finish the rest with a hand saw in the same kerf, and clean up the edge with a plane/chisel/sander/flush trim bit.

Practice on some scrap, IMO. It's not very hard and much safer.
 
Last edited:
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Bandwagon

Kolohe
<Silver Donator>
24,317
65,415
Bandsaw is the right power tool for deep through cuts. If you don't have one but do have a table saw, it's very common to take a max depth partial cut on the table saw, finish the rest with a hand saw in the same kerf, and clean up the edge with a plane/chisel/sander.

Practice on some scrap, IMO. It's not very hard.
I have a band saw, but it might as well be made by Fischer price.

Thanks guys. I'll pull this thing out of the CNC and figure out a way to do the rest. The router + flush trim but is what I'm most comfortable with, as far as trying to keep a clean edge.
 

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
12,259
11,915
I don't know what the right tool is, then. This thing was too thick for my table saw when I started, but I guess it's not anymore. It was 3.125in thick originally, but I surfaced it down to about 2.6. I guess I could do the table saw now, but I'm nervous about fucking up the slab. I don't have a lot of experience with the table saw and it's on a folding stand with kind of a shitty fence.

I brought it to the guy at the woodshop to square up for me, but I think he misunderstood what I was asking for. He just lopped off 2x sides, but didn't do an actual 21in square like I asked. Didn't realize it until I got back home.



Thanks Hek. This isn't something I'd be expecting to do regularly. The long bits ARE something I want so I can do deep terrain maps, but those things normally aren't going to be a deep channel with material on either side. I just need the reach. And for the 3d finish toolpaths, the axial cuts are about 0.001in per pass and not an issue. This one is an odd one off. I appreciate the caution though.



It's an option for someone that knows what they're doing and isn't worried about fucking up a $250 slab.

I'll see if I can go real slow and it least get the cut deep enough to where I can use my flush trim router bit on it after cutting it out the rest of the way by hand. I think I'm almost deep enough now for that.

I'll send a shitty image for a solution, please hold.
 

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
12,259
11,915
The inside path, on the right, is what I broke a bit on before. The outside path, on the left & deeper, is what I'm running now to prepare to cut the rest of the way down on the inside path.

There was a little chatter at the beginning, but it didn't start getting bad again until I got deeper than the first toolpath and have material on both sides.

View attachment 506502



This is the best course of action I can see without screwing up your end product, it will likely take time.

1. Mill it down following the blue lines until you get to your spoil board.
2. Slowly, with small bit sizes and cut depths cut out and straighten your edge. This should give you much less chatter and keep you from screwing things up. You might have to do a small bit of sanding at the end but it should be safe.
3. Rinse repeat for other side.



L6184p7uHA.png
 

Bandwagon

Kolohe
<Silver Donator>
24,317
65,415
This is the best course of action I can see without screwing up your end product, it will likely take time.

1. Mill it down following the blue lines until you get to your spoil board.
2. Slowly, with small bit sizes and cut depths cut out and straighten your edge. This should give you much less chatter and keep you from screwing things up. You might have to do a small bit of sanding at the end but it should be safe.
3. Rinse repeat for other side.



View attachment 506514
Oh I can keep that edge more or less straight just by going deeper on that toolpath. That's a big part of why I didn't want to move the piece off the machine.....i don't want to fuck up that alignment. But as long as I can get that inside edge pushed further down and deep enough to use a flush trim bit on the other side, I think I'm good.

I have that tool path running right now. It'll go about .2in deeper that the deepest part shown in my pics......so .2in of depth with material on either side. Then I'll pull it off the machine, run it through my shitty band saw and try the flush trim router bit.

Toolpath has 40 minutes left. If you guys don't hear from me in an hour, make sure at least one of my ballsack pictures is displayed at the funeral.
 
  • 1Like
Reactions: 1 user

Bandwagon

Kolohe
<Silver Donator>
24,317
65,415
Next question, since this is what I'll be working on after.

Best way to attach the aprons to the bottom of the slab? I was hoping I could make them removable, since I'll be shipping this.

Something like a 4in L bracket in the middle inside of the aprons, with threaded inserts? The legs are going to be secured to the aprons using the kerf mount bracket that......I don't remember who recommended it.

PXL_20231230_203929805.jpg
PXL_20231230_203839699~2.jpg
 

Hekotat

FoH nuclear response team
12,259
11,915
Oh I can keep that edge more or less straight just by going deeper on that toolpath. That's a big part of why I didn't want to move the piece off the machine.....i don't want to fuck up that alignment. But as long as I can get that inside edge pushed further down and deep enough to use a flush trim bit on the other side, I think I'm good.

I have that tool path running right now. It'll go about .2in deeper that the deepest part shown in my pics......so .2in of depth with material on either side. Then I'll pull it off the machine, run it through my shitty band saw and try the flush trim router bit.

Toolpath has 40 minutes left. If you guys don't hear from me in an hour, make sure at least one of my ballsack pictures is displayed at the funeral.

I agree with that mindset, especially if you didn't create a jig for it. I'd get it done on the router before taking it off.

lmfao, ballsack pictures on display at the funeral.
 

Captain Suave

Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris.
5,266
8,959
I have a band saw, but it might as well be made by Fischer price.

YMMV in your area, but respectable used bandsaws are pretty cheap. You can probably get a good condition 14'' Delta for under $300.

Best way to attach the aprons to the bottom of the slab? I was hoping I could make them removable, since I'll be shipping this.

Rout out small recesses in the aprons so the top sits flush.

Amazon product ASIN B07G38HYQH
 

Bandwagon

Kolohe
<Silver Donator>
24,317
65,415
So far so good. Just about to start the last 0.2in

Edit : as soon as it got deeper than the outer cut I made, it started chattering again. I just stopped it. I'll pull it out and do the rest on the bandsaw
PXL_20231230_210727456.jpg
 
Last edited:

Intrinsic

Person of Whiteness
<Gold Donor>
15,058
13,183
If he squared two sides, you can also use a circular saw since you have your reference side. Clamp a guide and go through. Although you did say over 2.5”? I don’t know… I only use mine for plywood usually, not stuff that think.

I still can’t do anything at all as I tore my bicep again two weeks after surgery while recovering. No idea how, want doing anything. Had to go to the emergency room bc it took a vein or something with it from my Pec and flooded my arm with blood. So yesterday they reattached the bicep and removed like 7 oz of hematoma.

Not to distract from Bandwagon’s problems lol. Just depresses me not being able to do out and create my own problems 😃
 

whoo

<Silver Donator>
1,394
6,065
Maybe....

If you're anywhere close to me, I was going to offer helping you finish it. I'm in the southeast. If you're also in the southeast, I'll get more specific in a PM