World of Warcraft: Classic

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Foaming

Foaming

Lord Nagafen Raider
403
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Its just easier to balance if you don't include the buffs. Its that simple guys. Doesn't matter what YOU want it is fully about how much dev time/resources or what the average mouth breathing classic player wants. The fact you guys are still arguing over this just proves my previous statement regarding how very very shortbus this conversation is.
 
Bruuce

Bruuce

Blackwing Lair Raider
1,547
2,705
Lunis said:
I don't even know what Ossoi is talking about.
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One might be confused on why this guy keeps coming back to argue about things that he is either completely wrong about or has no knowledge about. But if you review other posts and replies he has made, you will quickly realize that being a glutton for punishment is literally one of his favorite kinks. The dude gets off on being embarrassed and put down
 
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Grim1

Grim1

Ahn'Qiraj Raider
4,915
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Reliving the glory days can be fun, but eventually it gets pathetic.
 
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Caeden

Caeden

Golden Baronet of the Realm
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12,917
The few times I've seen a TBC raid video from Classic has just made me sad. That and WOTLK was when I raided the most and I only know where a handful of those people are now. I still remember some people I raided with for a solid 5 years and then one day some just didn't login again during Cata. I remember it showing them with the funky number names and 10+year time since login in the guild on a few during BFA. Sad times actually for me.

There is no going back.
 
Lunis

Lunis

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,320
1,592
Ossoi said:
No shit, and pretty sure I already said this.

And you contradict yourself, back when raids took months to fully clear, then how would stacking world buffs trivialize encounters
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I'm trying to follow your logic here. Because world buff stacking wasn't used/intended in vanilla to trivialize the encounters... therefore 15 years later when everyone has complete knowledge of the game and how to break it.. it should be allowed in classic fresh?
 
Lunis

Lunis

Blackwing Lair Raider
2,320
1,592
Bruuce said:
One might be confused on why this guy keeps coming back to argue about things that he is either completely wrong about or has no knowledge about. But if you review other posts and replies he has made, you will quickly realize that being a glutton for punishment is literally one of his favorite kinks. The dude gets off on being embarrassed and put down
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I still don't understand what his point even is. Anytime I try to pin him down he gets pedantic about some irrelevant tangent.
 
Ossoi

Ossoi

Potato del Grande
<Rickshaw Potatoes>
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Lunis said:
I'm trying to follow your logic here. Because world buff stacking wasn't used/intended in vanilla to trivialize the encounters... therefore 15 years later when everyone has complete knowledge of the game and how to break it.. it should be allowed in classic fresh?
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Ok clearly I need to spell it out to you


Your claim is three fold, a) world buffs weren't intended b) because they would have trivialized raids so c) world buffs shouldn't be allowed

A) is debatable unless you were a dev that can confirm what they were thinking (although I agree that the peak autism min max world buffs weren't intended)

B) is also debatable. You even said it yourself because vanilla was about progression and learning encounters, so getting world buffs to face a boss you haven't got past 90% was pointless

C) players now know every encounter, every ideal spec, every bis item, every consumable. They min max in more ways than just raid buffs

IIf the argument for removing buffs is harder raids, then removing buffs is a lazy way to achieve that

A better classic plus would have re scaled raids and some class balance tuning
 
Chris

Chris

Potato del Grande
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Ossoi said:
Ok clearly I need to spell it out to you


Your claim is three fold, a) world buffs weren't intended b) because they would have trivialized raids so c) world buffs shouldn't be allowed

A) is debatable unless you were a dev that can confirm what they were thinking (although I agree that the peak autism min max world buffs weren't intended)

B) is also debatable. You even said it yourself because vanilla was about progression and learning encounters, so getting world buffs to face a boss you haven't got past 90% was pointless

C) players now know every encounter, every ideal spec, every bis item, every consumable. They min max in more ways than just raid buffs

IIf the argument for removing buffs is harder raids, then removing buffs is a lazy way to achieve that

A better classic plus would have re scaled raids and some class balance tuning
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As usual, we knew all of this stuff back in vanilla WoW.

We just didn't do it because the players with the right class/spec/motivation were not available.

With foreknowledge of a fresh start, no lifer gimps can get together with the commitment of farming the buffs for hours each day and all being fury warriors.
 
Neranja

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
2,714
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Ossoi said:
A) is debatable unless you were a dev that can confirm what they were thinking (although I agree that the peak autism min max world buffs weren't intended)
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There is: Original WoW Designer on World Buffs and Their Creation/Purpose

You have to hunt down the specific video yourself, but in it he said they just wanted to make cool stuff and didn't think that hard about balancing and implications. Only after seeing things play out in vanilla did they start to pay more attention to balancing things in TBC.

He talks about balancing and things here:
 
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Ossoi

Ossoi

Potato del Grande
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Neranja said:
There is: Original WoW Designer on World Buffs and Their Creation/Purpose

You have to hunt down the specific video yourself, but in it he said they just wanted to make cool stuff and didn't think that hard about balancing and implications. Only after seeing things play out in vanilla did they start to pay more attention to balancing things in TBC.

He talks about balancing and things here:
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I found the quote I was thinking of RE the UBRS fire resist buff:

""This is a creative use of game mechanics... not an exploit. It wouldn't be on the mind control options if we didn't intend for it to be there. Funny, isn't it, how these spellcasters are located right inside an instance that's very, very close to two raid dungeons where fire resistance plays a big role, hm? ;)" - Caydlem

So on the one hand, there is some dev intent for players to make use of a conveniently located buff that is only accessible via mind control inside an instance that can only hold so many players at once.

I don't think this quote then means devs intended every player to get Ony, ZG, DMT, SF and for alliance players to buy separate accounts to get WCB etc etc.
 
Neranja

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
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Ossoi said:
I found the quote I was thinking of RE the UBRS fire resist buff:
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I think you have problems comprehending what the "creative use of game mechanics" in that context is. In plain English:

  • The usage of this and/or for this purpose was not intended
  • We found it amazing and/or funny that players came up with that
  • We'll let this one be, because ...
    • We can't nerf every bit of "fun" out of the game
    • We are currently developing the next expansion pack, and have taken notes so none of this will be possible going forward
This "creative use of game mechanics" comes directly from EQ, where it was par of the course. Only with Blizzard we got to "nerf everything unintended, and even ban players for finding bugs. This took some time until it reached its peak when Blizzard banhammer'd Nihilum for using saronite bombs during the Lich King encounter.
 
Ossoi

Ossoi

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Neranja said:
I think you have problems comprehending what the "creative use of game mechanics" in that context is. In plain English:

  • The usage of this and/or for this purpose was not intended
  • We found it amazing and/or funny that players came up with that
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Christ alive, I have problems comprehending when she literally says "It wouldn't be on the mind control options if we didn't intend for it to be there. Funny, isn't it, how these spellcasters are located right inside an instance that's very, very close to two raid dungeons where fire resistance plays a big role"

We found it amazing that they discovered this fire res buff right next to MC/BWL that we just happened to intentionally place there?
 
Neranja

Neranja

<Bronze Donator>
2,714
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Ossoi said:
Lmao, where do you think she gets her info from?
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Time has proven by now that the designers don't really talk to the community managers at Blizzard. Also, we have two conflicting anecdotes, with one being from a community manager, and the other from a designer itself.

You seem to have built this convenient myth in your head, that all of this was "intended design". Maybe the buff was intended, but Occam's Razor would suggest that it wasn't meant for the "raids next door", but for the instance it was placed in itself.
 
Sanrith Descartes

Sanrith Descartes

You have insufficient privileges to reply here.
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Rali said:
The highlight of Ossoi's life!

It's fucking sad..
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I beg to differ...

Dog Reaction GIF
 
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Ossoi

Ossoi

Potato del Grande
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Neranja said:
Maybe the buff was intended, but Occam's Razor would suggest that it wasn't meant for the "raids next door", but for the instance it was placed in itself.
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LMAO arguing with someone else who clearly never played wow, gg you got me.
 
S

Secrets

ResetEra Staff Member
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Something to actually consider, and something Blizzard may have overlooked in the name of nuking world buffs: the bosses will generally hit harder and the lack of fire resist buff in the surrounding zones (MC/UBRS/BWL etc) may pose a difficult problem. I'd hope they have a MC-able NPC in those zones that grants the buff, but have it fade when you leave, like in EQ with Dire Charm pets being placed at PoP zonelines.

I think the bigger issue is for me, what about the rest of the types of gamemodes in classic:

-Dungeon content?
-Gold farming / economy manipulation?
-Will anyone bother with PVP in a server like this? Maybe backport arenas from TBC Classic to replace the honor system that largely will see very little use with raids/elitist players being the primary focus?

Is this just going to be a top-heavy Classic experience?
 
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