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Sanrith Descartes

Sanrith Descartes

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BoozeCube said:
I have said this many times over but will say it again. Persistent world MMORPG type games are meant to be a social experience, that is what drives the growth of the game. People coming together and doing X,Y, and Z for fun. There can be a level of challenge to it various aspects of the game and having some limited exclusive rewards for the most challenging is nice, but once you move that needle to the degree in which you have to tell Sandso_01 sorry faggot you blow dick, your class blows dick, or whatever other reason you have in which you need to exclude them from content the social dynamic of the game is fucked.

Imagine a group of friends playing D&D and you have one dude who always rolls 1's and you tell him he has to sit out and can't be a part of the game anymore. That is what turbo tard retard faggots can't grasp in difficultly slider raids.
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This is where in my opinion EQ will always be better than WOW. Bring your friends. All your friends. Bring their friends. Bring their friends' friends. Those early EQ raids where the only player limit was not crashing the zone is what it was about. Even little Timmy got to be in on a Vox raid.
 
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BoozeCube

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Sanrith Descartes said:
This is where in my opinion EQ will always be better than WOW. Bring your friends. All your friends. Bring their friends. Bring their friends' friends. Those early EQ raids where the only player limit was not crashing the zone is what it was about. Even little Timmy got to be in on a Vox raid.
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Exactly, the "skill" in EQ was simply who could handle the logistics of phoning up retards at 3am to kill a spawn and who could cheat/exploit to check said spawns.

I do think there is a good balance between unlimited raid size and designing fun encounters for groups but there is a bell curve for group content that WoW has long since passed that simply pushes away more players than getting them to play. Again the game at its core is a social playground. It's an AOL chat room with pictures, once you go to far past excluding people your game is doomed to fail.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

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BoozeCube said:
Exactly, the "skill" in EQ was simply who could handle the logistics of phoning up retards at 3am to kill a spawn and who could cheat/exploit to check said spawns.

I do think there is a good balance between unlimited raid size and designing fun encounters for groups but there is a bell curve for group content that WoW has long since passed that simply pushes away more players than getting them to play. Again the game at its core is a social playground. It's an AOL chat room with pictures, once you go to far past excluding people your game is doomed to fail.
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EQ did so much right. Rare spawn drops that were sought after expansions later. A game design that basically forced you to be social. A combat system where people could chat between pulls, a game design where being blackballed from society for being a <insert shitty behavior> mattered.

i only went to WOW because my friends did. And the EQ content got really shittty post POP.
 
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Creslin

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Early wow handled it well too. 20 of your 40 in MC actually needed to be decent. The rest could be kinda shit auto attackers.

it really wasn’t until Naxx that blizzard started the retarded double down with the add on creators and hardcore guilds. And now we are 20 years into that and the 20 good players From MC have been distilled and distilled down to the current autistic mythic audience and the small number of people who think that’s fun. To me. I had more fun when the wine drunk mom was telling funny stories on our MC raid while forgetting to turn on auto attack.

Eq TLPs maintain that environment way longer so end up being better imo. On an eq tlp you can enjoy like 3 years of successful raiding with a social guild before the really hard content hits in like SoF
 
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Masakari

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I think a huge part of it is that directors need to have their people create content that has some sort of quantifiable ROI or performance metric. Creating things that are mindlessly fun and being able to tie that feature into something they can measure is probably hard for them.

I would honestly like to ask Ion what his most enjoyable moments in WoW were, and what he perceives as fun. He'd probably point out ElitestJerks was his fun. Then it would be an opportune time to point out he's not a real MMO gamer, just a data junkie.
 
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Daidraco

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Offer a Normal and Heroic difficulty for raids, have them flex scale up to 40 people, and have a set number of items drop per boss regardless of how many are in the raid. Scale the bosses to be easier with more people and hardest with the minimum 10 people. Scale back the actions per minute needed for combat rotations. Instead of having classes that are peaking up at 70-80 APM, bring all classes down to half that. WoW's GCD, if actually followed, would put classes at around 40 APM anyways.

Thats just how I would do it, but hey.. god forbid anyone hurt a Blizzard Dev's feelings by changing the decisions they made in the past. I hope to god that the rumor that theyre going to eliminate the current WoW studio and use that new studio is true. The company needs a shake up and its long over due.
 
Mist

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BoozeCube said:
I am telling you Blizzard fucked themselves square in the fucking asshole by not utilizing the extreme amount of fan talent many of which would have probably worked for free to get their foot in the door when Blizzard wasn't a cucked SJW terrorscape of aids and American Inventor shit. For years people have latched on and built countless addons, skins, voiceovers, you name it. Some of the mods have been so impressive they eclipse what the people at Blizz make, which outs them as the failure fraud dogshit they are which is why they probably are afraid to engage these people. Many of the addon makers should of been instantly fucking hired and asked to implement these things into the games built in base UI.

Then again they have let a multibillion dollar genre slip through their fingers with the entire MOBA market because they were too arrogant and stupid. I hope Bobby set the faggot who made that call on fire for losing him billions of bucks.
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Video game companies cannot let people work for free. Old lawsuits against AOL and Origin have precedence that you basically can't use volunteer labor without getting into serious trouble with labor laws.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

Sanrith Descartes

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Creslin said:
Early wow handled it well too. 20 of your 40 in MC actually needed to be decent. The rest could be kinda shit auto attackers.

it really wasn’t until Naxx that blizzard started the retarded double down with the add on creators and hardcore guilds. And now we are 20 years into that and the 20 good players From MC have been distilled and distilled down to the current autistic mythic audience and the small number of people who think that’s fun. To me. I had more fun when the wine drunk mom was telling funny stories on our MC raid while forgetting to turn on auto attack.

Eq TLPs maintain that environment way longer so end up being better imo. On an eq tlp you can enjoy like 3 years of successful raiding with a social guild before the really hard content hits in like SoF
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The cyber that would go on during trash clears in EQ was memorable. The EQ gameplay made the game more accessible to soccer moms and shit playing druids and shaman.
 
Zog

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Not sure anyone would want to code for free anyways, only people who say these things have never wrote code before.

I guarantee you the guys who wrote bigwigs and others have all that shit in their portfolio.

Last place I would want to work as a software engineer is Blizzard anyways lol as far as I've seen they don't pay jack shit which is why you get what you're getting.
 
Neranja

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Masakari said:
I think a huge part of it is that directors need to have their people create content that has some sort of quantifiable ROI or performance metric. Creating things that are mindlessly fun and being able to tie that feature into something they can measure is probably hard for them.
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I've been lamenting that, this "data driven development" for a long time. But it goes further than that, because even once in a while they stumble upon some "fun" accidentally.

They patch that out, which made it to "no fun allowed" meme status. From little things like nerfing Bear Tartare (which most people used to farm old content) to the current Dracthyr Soar nerf, because "It would make running old content too easy" ... It's on a fucking five minute cooldown.
 
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Masakari

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Neranja said:
I've been lamenting that, this "data driven development" for a long time. But it goes further than that, because even once in a while they stumble upon some "fun" accidentally.

They patch that out, which made it to "no fun allowed" meme status. From little things like nerfing Bear Tartare (which most people used to farm old content) to the current Dracthyr Soar nerf, because "It would make running old content too easy" ... It's on a fucking five minute cooldown.
Click to expand...

:(
 
Daidraco

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Neranja said:
I've been lamenting that, this "data driven development" for a long time. But it goes further than that, because even once in a while they stumble upon some "fun" accidentally.

They patch that out, which made it to "no fun allowed" meme status. From little things like nerfing Bear Tartare (which most people used to farm old content) to the current Dracthyr Soar nerf, because "It would make running old content too easy" ... It's on a fucking five minute cooldown.
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I think the entire issue surrounding Soar is over blown as fuck. If Alpha had its NDA up - Retail players would have gotten Soar in its nerfed state and everyone would be happy with it.

But if we're really going to dive into it, I dont think its based around old content clear efficiency at all. I only changed my opinion on that once they released the "changes" to appease the audience after the fact. They nerfed it down to 640% from 930% flying speed. But (I cant find the changes to link, so this is from memory) they changed it from a 5 minute CD with the higher speed to 4 minutes with the lower speed, and an additional 1 minute lower CD (3 minutes total) if the continent is fully explored. So the difference of 32 seconds flight time from the slower version vs the faster version doesnt even come near the most recent patches increased uptime.

So to me, I dont think its a "Fun detected, nerf bot activated" - I think its a graphical problem for old zones. Even with streamer PC's, we still see a fairly large amount of pop in as they fly over (older) areas. Then take into account that people are still playing WoW on 10-15 year old PC's and imagine how bad pop in is then. I think there is a fundamental difference in how older areas are loaded thats slower and it would require them to rip out all of that code and replace it with the newest code. Because Dragon flight in the newest expansion is still 930% at top speed.

As for what PR's said about the nerf? I just think they were put on the spot and had to pull something out of their ass cause they didnt know the real answer at the time. If they were just honest about it from the get-go, I think people would generally be okay and understanding about it. But God forbid we hurt a dev's ego and make *xer* look like a fool.
 
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Neranja

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Daidraco said:
I think the entire issue surrounding Soar is over blown as fuck.
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I am not that invested in the upcoming expansion, and I also think it may have been another overblown issue. It was a cool racial ability, but at the same time it would have had no impact on raiding or instanced PvP, so players were not that understanding of a nerf initially.

At the same time, it's an indicator how worn out the trust of the playerbase in the WoW developers has become, especially on the issue of "fun". Everyone still invested in retail seems to be on the edge now, because they feel that this is the last attempt the current developers have to right the ship. If Dragonflight fails there will be harsh consequences, and they fear Microsoft--or even worse: Bobby Kotick--will step in and make things even worse.

I blame both Blizzard and the player community equally: Communication has been abysmal for years, and establishing constructive and non-toxic channels of communication should be a priority. At the same time, players have resorted to being toxic assholes just so that they have the feeling that they "are being heard."

I have no solution for this, as this is a social problem, not a technical one.

Daidraco said:
So to me, I dont think its a "Fun detected, nerf bot activated" - I think its a graphical problem for old zones. Even with streamer PC's, we still see a fairly large amount of pop in as they fly over (older) areas.
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It's not so much a graphical issue, but more like a network code issue. That code has never been built for players moving that fast. Even taxi rides peaked around 400 to 450% movement speed, IIRC?
 
Daidraco

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Neranja said:
It's not so much a graphical issue, but more like a network code issue. That code has never been built for players moving that fast. Even taxi rides peaked around 400 to 450% movement speed, IIRC?
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Wouldnt network code be the same across the game? Just to reiterate why I have this suspicion - Dragon Riding/Flight in the Dragonflight expansion has ZERO pop in at 930%. This is just my theory based off the evidence that Ive seen - so it could very well be something else. But this just seems the most logical to me.
 
Caeden

Caeden

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Lunis said:
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Therein is the problem. For the most part, until Cata, I felt you could drag your social group through content with time. You might be behind and some encounters like Kaelthas, Yogg, Mimiron hard, or Lich King really made you want to boot your 54 year old grandad Hunter that was just fun to be around but wanted to stay warm in fires, but overall you could compensate. I think Mimi hard and Lich king heroic were the only two I think we had to come up with reasons to sit people. Completed optional content. I don’t think we did Yogg + 0 when it was relevant. My guild was semi casual by then. We were mostly content with LK normal 25, but we did push on because we liked each other.
 
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BoozeCube

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Caeden said:
Therein is the problem. For the most part, until Cata, I felt you could drag your social group through content with time. You might be behind and some encounters like Kaelthas, Yogg, Mimiron hard, or Lich King really made you want to boot your 54 year old grandad Hunter that was just fun to be around but wanted to stay warm in fires, but overall you could compensate. I think Mimi hard and Lich king heroic were the only two I think we had to come up with reasons to sit people. Completed optional content. I don’t think we did Yogg + 0 when it was relevant. My guild was semi casual by then. We were mostly content with LK normal 25, but we did push on because we liked each other.
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It comes down to a simple basic design choice. What's more important socialization or difficulty slider. MMOs are dependent on a critical mass of players and people gravitate to the platform with the highest number of users. So anyone with common sense can tell you socialization is more important.

The analytics team should be able to easily let you know once there is too big a drop off in encounter design.
 
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Vandyn

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Sanrith Descartes said:
EQ did so much right. Rare spawn drops that were sought after expansions later. A game design that basically forced you to be social. A combat system where people could chat between pulls, a game design where being blackballed from society for being a <insert shitty behavior> mattered.

i only went to WOW because my friends did. And the EQ content got really shittty post POP.
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Me and my wife actually had this conversation a few days ago and it brought up an interesting question. Would the social aspect of EQ be as successful as it was if something like Discord existed back then? Part of the allure of 'chatting' between pulls was the anonymous nature of it, where you were only typing in a chat box and the immersion was thus still intact. I wonder if that's gets broken once you introduce voice chat into the equation.
 
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Sanrith Descartes

Sanrith Descartes

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Caeden said:
really made you want to boot your 54 year old grandad
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Angry Fast And Furious GIF by The Fast Saga
 
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Sanrith Descartes

Sanrith Descartes

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Vandyn said:
Me and my wife actually had this conversation a few days ago and it brought up an interesting question. Would the social aspect of EQ be as successful as it was if something like Discord existed back then? Part of the allure of 'chatting' between pulls was the anonymous nature of it, where you were only typing in a chat box and the immersion was thus still intact. I wonder if that's gets broken once you introduce voice chat into the equation.
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Good point. We first adopted teamspeak for WoW. I never liked voice chat with strangers, I would rather type. With friends/guildies I preferred voice.
 
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