World of Warcraft: Current Year

I recently re-subbed and to be honest, for me anyway, the magic has long been gone and WoW is truly a dead title.

I know I'm not in the popular kids club with this opinion, but I kind of just want to enjoy an MMO without having to work at rotations, min maxing the shit out of my character, or spending time watching videos on Tank Spot of people playing the video game so I can learn the encounter. Vanilla and to an extent BC has none of that, and maybe thats due to the absence of add-ons like Re-count. It just seems to be that WoW now isn't fun. Its all work, with a sense of accomplishment when you execute on an encounter, which is all good, but the fun aspect is gone. Your either logging on to dailies or running your weekly raids to get Valor capped.

You know a game is broken when its near impossible to execute without add-ons. As a resto druid, I can't raid without Healbot. Period. It would be a mess. Theres something wrong with that. Deadly Boss Mods? For me, this all points to how out of whack the game has gotten. Take all these tools away, and you start to see the sad shape of things. Regressive content rewarding with Badges was a mistake. Too much fast travel impacts the size of the world, this was a mistake.

The game, and imo, the MMO genre jumped the shark. Just my opinion, but its kind of sad.

Warrik_sl said:

I recently re-subbed and to be honest, for me anyway, the magic has long been gone and WoW is truly a dead title.

I know I'm not in the popular kids club with this opinion, but I kind of just want to enjoy an MMO without having to work at rotations, min maxing the shit out of my character, or spending time watching videos on Tank Spot of people playing the video game so I can learn the encounter. Vanilla and to an extent BC has none of that, and maybe thats due to the absence of add-ons like Re-count. It just seems to be that WoW now isn't fun. Its all work, with a sense of accomplishment when you execute on an encounter, which is all good, but the fun aspect is gone. Your either logging on to dailies or running your weekly raids to get Valor capped.

You know a game is broken when its near impossible to execute without add-ons. As a resto druid, I can't raid without Healbot. Period. It would be a mess. Theres something wrong with that. Deadly Boss Mods? For me, this all points to how out of whack the game has gotten. Take all these tools away, and you start to see the sad shape of things. Regressive content rewarding with Badges was a mistake. Too much fast travel impacts the size of the world, this was a mistake.

The game, and imo, the MMO genre jumped the shark. Just my opinion, but its kind of sad.

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I actually totally prefer how combat works now as opposed to how it used to work. Rather than spamming one button or a generic sequence of buttons, it's actually reactionary without going off the deep-end. I honestly require no add-on's to pull good DPS. Combat has vastly improved as every DPS, and now no one really has a boring rotation, except maybe mages. Some classes have pretty in-depth rotations(demonology), and I can't see how that is a bad thing.

Many of the classes in Vanilla WoW just had such bland and mindless rotations, it was basically just a gear check. And MMO's prior to WoW had even more bland combat. EQ's fun came from the lack of restrictions on the encounter (kiting, no rubber-banding, et cetera). UO's combat was a fucking joke, it was the social mechanics of the game that made it fun. And when it comes to more modern combat engines like GW2, fuck being limited to such a small number of abilities and getting them ALL incredibly quickly. There is zero sense of or progression in that game, and that is half of the fun of abilities in RPG's. I'm actually worried about Blizzards latest idea that the game has too much ability bloat. Sure, it uses a lot of hot keys, but I've never found that to be a problem. It's no EQ2.

I personally would love to just see WoW combat applied to a game world that has less restrictions.

Dark Legacy Comics

I'm sure there are a lot of broken veterans around here...

The bloat problem is class dependent, and affects PVP more so than PVE. An example of bloat is dumb abilities like "here's a new attack that you use once every 30 seconds for a 2% more damage." Or "you have five dps cooldowns already, so here's two more!" (see hunters) And now everyone seems to have 3 or 4 forms of CC/interrupts in any spec.

And then you have over-complicated unnecessarily frustrating shit like the lv90 mage talents that make playing the class about as fun as having your dick nailed to a board.

I think tbc/wotlk was the pinnacle but I do think WoW is being unfairly judged lately. I rarely feel compelled to cap valor now because of how the upgrade system works. I like that there are so many things to do that you can pick your poison and ability bloat got a lot better with the new spec approaches and hopefully they prune some other stuff next xpac.

Warrik_sl said:

As a resto druid, I can't raid without Healbot. Period. It would be a mess. Theres something wrong with that.

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What exactly does Healbot do that you couldn't possibly play competently without? All I use to heal is the default raid grid and mouseover macros. I haven't paid attention to Healbot since it was literally hitting one button to auto-heal the raid. Which existed way the fuck early in Vanilla, along with the one-button Decursive, and dmg meters, and boss mods, and threat meters, and guides to rotations/builds/boss strats. Your hearkening back to that era may be a tad rose-tinted.

Caeden_sl said:

I think tbc/wotlk was the pinnacle but I do think WoW is being unfairly judged lately. I rarely feel compelled to cap valor now because of how the upgrade system works. I like that there are so many things to do that you can pick your poison and ability bloat got a lot better with the new spec approaches and hopefully they prune some other stuff next xpac.

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I don't want to come off as judging the game unfairly. I'm just saying that its sad that WoW can now be summed up as: rotations, meters, and mods. Everything else has been trivialized.

Lodi_sl said:

I honestly require no add-on's to pull good DPS.

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While that may be true, its not a stretch to say WoW is now a game run on add-ons. Nearly everyone, if not everyone, builds their play style on having them at this point. Some classes far more than others, and some of this is directly tied to ability bloat.

DavivMcD_sl said:

What exactly does Healbot do that you couldn't possibly play competently without? All I use to heal is the default raid grid and mouseover macros. I haven't paid attention to Healbot since it was literally hitting one button to auto-heal the raid. Which existed way the fuck early in Vanilla, along with the one-button Decursive, and dmg meters, and boss mods, and threat meters, and guides to rotations/builds/boss strats. Your hearkening back to that era may be a tad rose-tinted.

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I use Healbot almost exactly how you describe, except I'm not aware of this one button auto-heal nonsense. Its just a series of mouse+key maps. I realize you can also use Grid with mouseovers, and a series of others, but the point is, no serious healer is raiding without some assistance to execute. I think your in denial though if you can't see the difference between raiding in WoW in Vanilla vs now. Its not rose-tinted, nor was it perfect then, but there's been a dramatic shift in design, and thats reflected in how players interact in game.

Warrik i agree with you whole heartedly i have a hard time trying to pick an alt to play because of all the stupid shit some classes have. you just have to take the good with the bad, i think wow has evolved into a pretty dynamic game catering to lots of people these days. our good old days are just gone and if you want to be playing an mmo this is what you get.

another way i look at it is final fantasy two (us) was my favorite turn based rpg. was it the pinnacle of design? certainly not but its where my heart is. and you sure as fuck can't find classic turn based rpgs anymore they have evolved into something i won't buy or play anymore. the same will come to mmos one day.

Caeden_sl said:

Also, lock at 510 ilvl now so going back to try my hand at the quest boss again.

So Mmo-c has the scaling tech on the first page. I expected this with 5.4 but it became flex. You know, all it would take is re-colors of TMog gear from old raids, some pets/mounts, and VP and old raids become viable LFRs or Flex areas. Maybe even just populate loot with current stats of mirror loot but increase. Rarity of statted not necessarily tmog loot to avoid gearing too fast.

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I'm surprised that it's taken Blizzard this long to add sidekicking/mentoring/etc. personally.

Warrik_sl said:

I recently re-subbed and to be honest, for me anyway, the magic has long been gone and WoW is truly a dead title.

I know I'm not in the popular kids club with this opinion, but I kind of just want to enjoy an MMO without having to work at rotations, min maxing the shit out of my character, or spending time watching videos on Tank Spot of people playing the video game so I can learn the encounter. Vanilla and to an extent BC has none of that, and maybe thats due to the absence of add-ons like Re-count. It just seems to be that WoW now isn't fun. Its all work, with a sense of accomplishment when you execute on an encounter, which is all good, but the fun aspect is gone. Your either logging on to dailies or running your weekly raids to get Valor capped.

You know a game is broken when its near impossible to execute without add-ons. As a resto druid, I can't raid without Healbot. Period. It would be a mess. Theres something wrong with that. Deadly Boss Mods? For me, this all points to how out of whack the game has gotten. Take all these tools away, and you start to see the sad shape of things. Regressive content rewarding with Badges was a mistake. Too much fast travel impacts the size of the world, this was a mistake.

The game, and imo, the MMO genre jumped the shark. Just my opinion, but its kind of sad.

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Just because you didn't min/max during vanilla / bc doesn't mean it did not exist. Same with boss videos / strats, they were more rare than they are now (thanks to the internet) but they did exist. Being oblivious to things does not make them not exist.

Are you required to do any of that now? Most definitely not. If you are looking to be above world 100th yeah sure, having an edge is the name of the game. It's very clear that you are judging the game based off of what you have heard other people say and not actually trying it out for yourself. The addon issue you are talking about is the same issue, you are fine without boss mods, and healing addons. How is showing existing information in a different way somehow a requirement? The only none default thing I can think of is a mouse over macro, but that just requires you to use the existing macro system to its fullest.

If you are having issues with min/max and playing said class to its fullest then you are not going to like any new game (not just mmo, any online game) people don't want to carry you if you are not trying.

Toxxulian_sl said:

Just because you didn't min/max during vanilla / bc doesn't mean it did not exist. Same with boss videos / strats, they were more rare than they are now (thanks to the internet) but they did exist. Being oblivious to things does not make them not exist.

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Yes, it existed. People used sites like Thottbot and UI's like Cosmos since day 1, but if you are trying to say there has not been a radical shift in how Dungeons and Raids are run today vs. Vanilla or BC, then I think your being a bit dishonest with yourself. Vanilla was far from perfect, but the dungeon and raid experience was dramatically different both in how they were laid out structurally as well as boss encounters. Running DBM in modern WoW, for many, if not most guilds is a requirement.

Toxxulian_sl said:

It's very clear that you are judging the game based off of what you have heard other people say and not actually trying it out for yourself.

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Not sure what this even means or why you would think that.

Toxxulian_sl said:

How is showing existing information in a different way somehow a requirement?

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Every guild I know of, and have been a part of, requires DBM (at a minimum) for the raids as well as studying encounter videos at Tank Spot.

Toxxulian_sl said:

If you are having issues with min/max and playing said class to its fullest then you are not going to like any new game (not just mmo, any online game) people don't want to carry you if you are not trying.

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I am not having issues min/maxing, nor am I being carried. On the contrary. I know I how to play my class and I do it well. Min maxing is not new. Neither are add-ons. What I am saying is that how they are used and their place in the game has had a dramatic shift. Its effected the way Blizzard designs content.

To be clear on where i feel the game went a bit sideways:

- I think fast travel had a decent balance up until Dungeon Stones. Fast travel increase = decrease in world size and scope. Its a balance that was lost quite a while ago. You can now get pretty much anywhere, near immediate.
- I think badges were a terrible idea. Regressive content rewards to achieve net new gear enhancement = over geared players in LFR and Heroic Dungeons runs farming badges to pay for net new gear, upgrades or transmogs. On the surface people may not understand whats wrong with this, but you just vastly diminished the playing experience of those players who's natural progression step is that content but effectively speeding them through it, thus shortening the new content shelf life for them.
- I think the destruction of world PvP made the game world a less interesting place. BG's and Arenas became nothing more than a collection point for PvP'ers to masturbate over themselves. The days of PvP battles at the gates of Blackrock Mountain, Taren Mill, Kargath, Crossroads, etc are long gone, and the world is poorer for it.
- The economy right now is on a freight train to destruction and there doesn't appear to be anything Blizzard can do about it. The balance between in-flow and out-flow has pretty much been abandoned at this point.

But most of all, WoW right now requires you min-max and run add-ons to succeed, and to me, this is the most fatal aspect of the game. We are probably more likely to find evidence of unicorns than to find players who raid without add-ons, and for me, that speaks to poor design decisions. Healers should not need to modify the game UI to be effective at raiding. And they all do. No one out there is clicking on default blizzard raid tiles and healing their raid. Not effectively. You should not have study a rotation that you must follow to hit some dps percentage, or meet some metric. Thats what I am saying. Regressive content rewards was the massive desegregation movement that Blizzard began to try and force the Ubers and Casuals to make nice and play together, but instead, it carried a lot of casuals to a point, and at that point they realized what it would take for them to continue enjoying the game, and then they get frustrated. The game changed. Now servers are filled with over geared causals who are bad at their class because they were enabled, and even more aloof Uber's who enjoy studying World of Logs to find our why that rogue was 1k lower in dps.

Again, this is just my opinion. The game has lost something, and I think its become far less fun. For some people, I guess, what is fun for them is a game thats announcing you should move out of the lava and get ready for the next boss ability, or where you watch cool downs so you don't miss the next ability in your rotation chain, or you watch videos of players showing you how to beat an encounter. Buts its just stopped being fun for me.

Alrighty you don't like WoW. And WoW isn't going to change from what it is now, and every other game being made from here on out is still going to sample from WoW's magic formula. Yes it does suck we aren't having fun in Everquest or Vanilla WoW anymore.

Uh, if geared players had no reason to do dungeons, how are you going to find people to do the dungeons when you need them? That's the entire point of the system.

And you aren't required to have rotations and UI mods to succeed. You require them to not suck donkey shit, but that's true of any RPG. Without rotations, what do you have exactly? Smash one key harder? Randomly push buttons however you feel like it? Turn on autoattack and watch the fight? Are you complaining that you have more than one button to push, or are you complaining that pushing buttons out of order has poor results and everyone can see you doing it and make fun of you for it? For some reason, I'm thinking of a guy playing Street Fighter using only low punch and griping about how the other guy is using all the buttons.

As for mods, god that shit has been beaten to death. Nothing is required any more. The WOW UI has evolved to incorporate lots of things first seen in user mods, including power aura type hud displays so you don't have to stare at your hotbars to see when abilities have procced and most raid encounters give you DBM style warnings already. DBM is almost entirely overkill for all except a handful of hard modes and even then default DBM will shit up your screen with all kinds of crap that you really don't need to care about. Sure, if you're not a lazy, whining fuck then you can make the game easier to play by intelligently arranging your UI and using appropriate mods to track the information you actually need. But most people who install a mod just use default settings and slap the window somewhere on their screen that isn't already covered by some other useless mod window and are probably worse off than just running the default.

Whining about mods is basically just saying "I'm too lazy to customize my UI so no one should be able to do it!" You may as well be saying everyone should be required to play with a joystick because it's too much trouble to customize your key bindings. For fucks sake, people to this day will still use the line "wow mods play the game for you!" when decursive was fixed fucking forever ago and raid mods don't provide any information that isn't right there in front of your face already and similar tools exist for every game out there.

If it weren't for mods, most of wow's life would have had the player/target hotbar shoved into the upper left corner with no way to move it. And good luck tracking your buffs/debuffs with those tiny icons. Who the hell plays like that?

Oh, I forgot to mention world PVP and immersive travel times. But that's because I don't give a shit about either. But those complaints at least I can see how someone would have that opinion. But the rest, well, the rest just seem to be incredibly stupid things to whine about. To me someone complaining about wow's mod system is like a guy complaining that Jessica Alba's blowjob was too wet and warm and she didn't want to cuddle afterwards, or perhaps complaining how he has to pay taxes on his billion dollar lottery ticket. Complaining about something that is a huge reason why the game is better than any other MMO ever made is... wat?

I had most of that typed up then deleted it when I reread his original post about recently resubbing. If you recently came back then you quit for your reasons then come back to the game to see how it is still evolving and decide this isn't for me then proceed to throw the rose tinted glasses on and come shit up Rerolled some more. Arm chair game design is the EQ Next thread.

Warrik_sl said:

But most of all, WoW right now requires you min-max and run add-ons to succeed, and to me, this is the most fatal aspect of the game.

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This is key.

You are defining success as min-maxing then saying you don't want to min-max. Bro, many many other players are defining success differently. Should one desire to raid bleeding edge content, then yea, min-maxing is a given -- but it has ALWAYS been this way. Everything you're citing is for bleeding-edge raiders. You think the average raiding guild right now has people debating rotations to squeeze out another couple percent DPS? Probably not.

The economy seems perfectly functional to me -- SOMEONE keeps buying all ore/herbs I list. Freight train to destruction sounds a tad harsh.

Regardless, I'm not trying to white knight this game -- I resubbed a month ago and played 1-90 and am enjoying the raid content at my own pace.

I don't think anyone has an excuse about knowing which buttons to press when there's an AddOn which tells you which buttons to press (spellflash). Even still, I've seen some shit numbers in LFR, like a healer out DPS'd a Huntard bad.

As a resto druid I'd probably shoot myself without healbot. I don't need anything fancy but healbot makes it about 20x easier to use my abilities, since so many of them are instants, and since I am watching for procs like ludicity, or sage mending or clearcast, etc.

Also makes it easier for me to babysit the rest of the raid. At a glance it'll show you who has your rejuve/lifebloom/wild growth/regrowth etc. Raiding for me is essentially making sure I've check marked all of my hots on the raid and then yelling at dps to get the fuck out of the fire. Or kill that add. Or avoid that conal attack. Or click that orb. Or stop attacking that boss. Or interrupt. OR PRESS THEIR FUCKING DEFENSIVE COOLDOWNS.

Sigh.