World of Warcraft: Current Year

Neranja · Apr 22, 2021

Creslin said:
He did an ok job on eq2 but still left a game that was critically flawed from ability bloat among many other things.

That came right after the experience of Star Wars Galaxies revamping their combat system, and that playerbase fetching their torches and pitchforks wanting some heads to roll. So the higher-ups decided "no more combat revamps."

Considereing the people that followed in his footsteps (with Ponytail as a prime example) I think he left the game in a better state than he took it over, and a much better state than most of his successors managed to deliver. Its hard to blame someone for not polishing a turd hard enough when you don't even get gloves.

kaid · Apr 22, 2021

Given how hard it is to actually launch an mmo somebody who has been a part of lauching a couple likely does have decently marketable experience. Launching a successful mmo is almost an insane task. You basically can't make enough content out of the gate to satisfy the playerbase especially when you are immediately compared to games with a decade+ of content generation.

Chris · Apr 22, 2021

kaid said:
Given how hard it is to actually launch an mmo somebody who has been a part of lauching a couple likely does have decently marketable experience. Launching a successful mmo is almost an insane task. You basically can't make enough content out of the gate to satisfy the playerbase especially when you are immediately compared to games with a decade+ of content generation.

Yeah, any new MMO needs either:

1) Strong PvP content with good rewards for killing other players in the gane world and also PvE objectives within that system for people who don't like PvP. Have players make your content for you like in EvE.

This is NOT giving 3 honour points for a kill and some bullshit capturable objective that makes Zangarmarsh levelling 1% faster like in WoW.

Maybe have loot drop off players with a high K/D rario and have players get big rewards for staying alive with a hight K/D ratio.

2) A quick turnaround time for new PvE content via strong dev tools with a very well thought out progression system which rewards participation no matter how good their gear is.

This is NOT having catch up gear to skip through progression tiers and waste content like in WoW.

Maybe your guild/raid leader has a progression tree for helping people through lower level content which buffs their guild/raid roles?

jayrebb · Apr 22, 2021

i remember I met jozu in-game in rift randomly at launch-- just saw his character out in the world. It had good organic open-world experiences.

today you can't get that experience in WoW. Rift had EQ and Vanguard vibes.

Mist · Apr 22, 2021

Rift was fun for a couple moths to abuse a bunch of broken builds and stuff.

SWTOR was similarly fun to figure out the talent builds that would get us nerfed.

Daidraco · Apr 22, 2021

Watched Preach's video about 9.1 and all I could do was laugh when he said "Theyre introducing another system." Wtf is wrong with these devs, jfc.

Mist said:
Rift was fun for a couple moths to abuse a bunch of broken builds and stuff.

SWTOR was similarly fun to figure out the talent builds that would get us nerfed.

The Eternity Vault Operation/raid was a buggy messy piece of shit, especially Pylons. But we had a shit ton of fun doing that raid and just throwing ourselves at it. Just about all of us quit SWTOR after we finished that raid though lol. I loved the hell out of my Bounty Hunter Tank. Wish some other MMO would make a ranged tank like that.

Cinge · Apr 22, 2021

Mist said:
Rift was fun for a couple moths to abuse a bunch of broken builds and stuff.

SWTOR was similarly fun to figure out the talent builds that would get us nerfed.

Saboteur in pvp at the start, so much fun.

And huttball never got old.

Cybsled · Apr 23, 2021

SWTOR at launch was pretty fun. Huttball was entertaining PVP and I loved force knocking people into the flame jets to insta-gib them lol. It was actually the first MMO I ever decided to try tanking in, I ended up liking it, then went brewmaster in WoW when monks came out as a result.

jayrebb · Apr 23, 2021

A lot of people I've met in SL talk up the SWTOR pvp as ideal in many regards. Just something I've noticed.

Mist · Apr 23, 2021

Cybsled said:
SWTOR at launch was pretty fun. Huttball was entertaining PVP and I loved force knocking people into the flame jets to insta-gib them lol. It was actually the first MMO I ever decided to try tanking in, I ended up liking it, then went brewmaster in WoW when monks came out as a result.

Me and my friends did basically nothing but play Huttball and the other PvP battlegrounds, hit the max pvp rank then quit after the first month.

I dunno if I even finished the raid.

Koushirou · Apr 23, 2021

All I can remember of SWTOR raids was one with some lava(?) room with a room-wide AoE and after wiping, everyone was still getting hit with it outside the raid and we just chain died for like an hour until we gave up and logged for the night. Shit was buggy as fuck.

Muligan · Apr 23, 2021

Mist said:
Me and my friends did basically nothing but play Huttball and the other PvP battlegrounds, hit the max pvp rank then quit after the first month.

I dunno if I even finished the raid.

That was pretty much my experience as well. That's all that really kept us logging in was some of the battlegrounds. I couldn't tell you what one dungeon and/or raid even looked like to this day.

Chanur · Apr 23, 2021

Daidraco said:
Watched Preach's video about 9.1 and all I could do was laugh when he said "Theyre introducing another system." Wtf is wrong with these devs, jfc.

The Eternity Vault Operation/raid was a buggy messy piece of shit, especially Pylons. But we had a shit ton of fun doing that raid and just throwing ourselves at it. Just about all of us quit SWTOR after we finished that raid though lol. I loved the hell out of my Bounty Hunter Tank. Wish some other MMO would make a ranged tank like that.

SWTOR was the best leveling experience of any MMO I have ever played. I did it many times. I just didn't give a damn about any of the content they were putting out at high level unfortunately.

TJT · Apr 23, 2021

Chris said:
Yeah, any new MMO needs either:

1) Strong PvP content with good rewards for killing other players in the gane world and also PvE objectives within that system for people who don't like PvP. Have players make your content for you like in EvE.

This is NOT giving 3 honour points for a kill and some bullshit capturable objective that makes Zangarmarsh levelling 1% faster like in WoW.

Maybe have loot drop off players with a high K/D rario and have players get big rewards for staying alive with a hight K/D ratio.

2) A quick turnaround time for new PvE content via strong dev tools with a very well thought out progression system which rewards participation no matter how good their gear is.

This is NOT having catch up gear to skip through progression tiers and waste content like in WoW.

Maybe your guild/raid leader has a progression tree for helping people through lower level content which buffs their guild/raid roles?

I would generally agree but the sad truth is that an equal but separate PVP experience within the game is hard to capture. Because while I enjoy PVP from time to time it should not be anything other than side game. Because the crowd who have PVP as their main part of the game don't want to just PVP against other PVPers. They want sheep to kill. Which the PVE don't care about.

Players who really want PVP want to do shit like wait until you have half health or are mining/gathering then gank your ass and take your shit then lulz about it.

Caeden · Apr 23, 2021

All this has done is made me want to sub to swtor to play some stories I never did. That game needs an offline version.

Muurloen · Apr 23, 2021

Chanur said:
SWTOR was the best leveling experience of any MMO I have ever played. I did it many times. I just didn't give a damn about any of the content they were putting out at high level unfortunately.

Levels 1-20 in Tortage was amazing for Age of Conan. Too bad everything after it was a bucket of smashed assholes.

Chris · Apr 23, 2021

TJT said:
I would generally agree but the sad truth is that an equal but separate PVP experience within the game is hard to capture. Because while I enjoy PVP from time to time it should not be anything other than side game. Because the crowd who have PVP as their main part of the game don't want to just PVP against other PVPers. They want sheep to kill. Which the PVE don't care about.

Players who really want PVP want to do shit like wait until you have half health or are mining/gathering then gank your ass and take your shit then lulz about it.

That's true, I'm that kind of PvP player lol.

The value of targets had to be managed via gameplay mechanics to encourage fun PvP for everyone. Then you got your player generated content.

Have a dearh streak because you are focused on PvE and fighting back poorly? You offer no reward for killing and your faction sends you an NPC to heal you. Ganker can still have fun trying to get past your ever growing number of NPC bodyguards, ganked has more ability to fight back. Or maybe reward PvP players for kills in the vicinity of a player like that.

On a massive kill streak because you are great at PvP and doing it all day? Killing a player like that gives big rewards, have them hunt each other down.

There's no shortage of ideas on how to reward and protect players in PvP. Blizzard just don't gave the design skill to pull it off.

Daidraco · Apr 23, 2021

Just depends on the type of game. A game like WoW, I could see them adding an invulnerability against a particular Attacker, after the defendant has been killed say.. 5 times within 20 minutes by that attacker. The invulnerability buff lasts 10 minutes against the attacker only. Then they have a 15 minute window where if they die to that same attacker again, the defendant gains the invulnerability buff w/o the prerequisites. The attacker is clearly being a shit player in this scenario, and there is just no justifiable reason and is just griefing. Guard idea is too exploitable. The vicinity idea is neat, but exploitable. There has to be a zero gain by both parties in a game like WoW.

However, in a game where there are actual world objectives - say, New World or AoC's planned systems - then that buff clearly wouldnt work because its just too extreme and defeats the purpose of guarding special resources or locations.

I am getting a kick out of the fact that the WOW retail thread has became a thread about MMO's in general, and not WoW related lul.

Merrith · Apr 23, 2021

Daidraco said:
Watched Preach's video about 9.1 and all I could do was laugh when he said "Theyre introducing another system." Wtf is wrong with these devs, jfc.

The Eternity Vault Operation/raid was a buggy messy piece of shit, especially Pylons. But we had a shit ton of fun doing that raid and just throwing ourselves at it. Just about all of us quit SWTOR after we finished that raid though lol. I loved the hell out of my Bounty Hunter Tank. Wish some other MMO would make a ranged tank like that.

I remember people complaining Pylons were bugged and not able to be completed on Nightmare or whatever. We figured out the trick in making sure one pylon completed first in a certain sequence that made it work every time, plus we could bug it to keep doing it even after clearing it where it would still drop loot and we'd pull out mods from the drops to upgrade other pieces. Shit was hilarious.

Malakriss · Apr 23, 2021

Merrith said:
I remember people complaining Pylons were bugged and not able to be completed on Nightmare or whatever. We figured out the trick in making sure one pylon completed first in a certain sequence that made it work every time, plus we could bug it to keep doing it even after clearing it where it would still drop loot and we'd pull out mods from the drops to upgrade other pieces. Shit was hilarious.

The price to pull out mods in vanilla was more expensive than it is a decade later. WoW repair costs had a similar problem, as did FFXIV tank death runs. Wasn't a small percentage they were making paupers out of anyone not doing moneymaking on the side. Both WoW and SWTOR had training cost moneysinks as well.

The cheeziest raid part was Soa, the last boss of EV, respawning so you could swap out one person and rekill. The new person was the only one without a lockout so they would be defaulted all of the loot.

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