A Song of Ice and Fire (Released Spoilers)
- Thread starter Dr.Retarded
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Dandai
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I don't. I'm very willing to accept the possibility that I heard wrong. I don't even remember who told me about the five year gap in the first place.
Edit: Lookinghere, there's no mention of publisher/author conflict. They suggest that it was entirely on Martin to not do the five year gap.
My bad.
Gavinmad
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Chris
Potato del Grande
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Why would you jump to the conclusion that there were no dragons when the wall was built? Having Dragons and Dragon Eggs being around implies that they existed in the past, did they just appear out of thin air?
Dragons in the current story are extremely rare untameabe creatures. Why couldn't they be extremely rare untamable creatures during the age of heroes, giving their name to the also really fucking rare "Dragonsteel" forged with their magic and "Dragonglass" found near their lairs (Volcanos)? Then later Valyria would be founded when it was discovered how to tame and breed dragons, increasing Dragonsteel production so much as to make it known as "Valyrian" Steel.
Dragons in the current story are extremely rare untameabe creatures. Why couldn't they be extremely rare untamable creatures during the age of heroes, giving their name to the also really fucking rare "Dragonsteel" forged with their magic and "Dragonglass" found near their lairs (Volcanos)? Then later Valyria would be founded when it was discovered how to tame and breed dragons, increasing Dragonsteel production so much as to make it known as "Valyrian" Steel.
I also took that to be the case, that dragons have been around just as long if not longer than anything else.
I mean, if the dragons all suddenly appeared in westeros only a couple thousand years ago, then maybe they were aliens who traveled to this new world in order to conquer...... holy shit, GRRM is Lumie.
I mean, if the dragons all suddenly appeared in westeros only a couple thousand years ago, then maybe they were aliens who traveled to this new world in order to conquer...... holy shit, GRRM is Lumie.
Awww, sounds like someone is upset that Wolfie (sp?) caught them at Brony/Pony con
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I can't look it up right now but im pretty sure the valyrians discovered the first dragons (in recorded history) inside the 14 fires. There were other protodragons like the wyrms that lived in the earth, sea dragons from iron born legends, etc. But actual dragons weren't around til the valyrian empire.
Initially in the first few books this was all fine until grrm started fleshing out the history, and it turns out that the wall was built before valyria existed.
khalid
Unelected Mod
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Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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Oh it's fine and I'm not shitting on it. But GRRM is well known for using unreliable narration. The further removed from an actual PoV character's internal dialog about what they've actually seen the less certainty there is in the truth.
Making statements like, "dragons weren't around until..." is making statements based on the lies told by men who died many years ago.
khalid
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Yes, clarifying sometimes that these statements are made by unreliable narrators is a good idea. However, that isn't what you did. Instead, you basically said having a discussion at all was pointless.
That implies that any kind of discussion on any subject in a fictional legend is pointless. Yet just because we have unreliable narrators, there are still things we can talk about. Things that are supported by multiple POVs are more reliable than others. Certainly things directly contradicted by a POV should hold less water than something just made up. For example, R+L=J is probably alot more valid than a theory saying that SamwellTarly is the PTWP.
I mean, if all POVs are equally valid or there is no point in even arguing about them, doesn't that make all of Chuk's theories equally viable and likely to be true? I don't want to live in that world Tuco and neither do you.
So fuck right off and let us debate shit if we want!
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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I didn't say it was pointless, just futile!
But seriously, it's fun to debate this stuff and I'm not condemning it. I'm just saying that people who make strong opinions about shit like 'how were dragons made in the GoT universe' are probably either wrong or never proven right. Getting a good record on the beginning of the dragons from the fictional books would be like understanding the big bang from the book of Genesis.
But seriously, it's fun to debate this stuff and I'm not condemning it. I'm just saying that people who make strong opinions about shit like 'how were dragons made in the GoT universe' are probably either wrong or never proven right. Getting a good record on the beginning of the dragons from the fictional books would be like understanding the big bang from the book of Genesis.
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Actually all of this is just to counter the silly reddit theory.
Again im on the road i cant do much fact checking. But im pretty sure the one and only indication anywhere in the books is the mention of Dragonsteel in the nw records, and its far more likely thats just an error on grrms part or that the record isnt as old as we think it is.
Basically the options are:
valryia is older than we are told (not likely at all, val being like the roman Empire with record keeping etc)
The wall is much younger than we are told (more likely, the age of heroes being oral tradition/folklore/myth/legend)
Grrm messed up once, in his most rework/rewritten/edited novel (affc. Also likely)
I don't understand why what im saying is some "theory". There were no dragons in westeros prior to aegon the conqueror. Ie 300 years ago ie firmly consistent with the lore and world of the novels as written thus far. Not a case of unreliable narrator, unless grrm is the narrator. So why does the word dragonsteel appear once in the old nw records? There are no stories, myths, folklore, old nan tales, etc in westeros prior to aegon. There are no dragon eggs laying around, other than the ones the targs brought with them. The only mention of the word dragon at all is from the iron island legends of a sea serpent (dragon) from the age of legends that fights a kraken or there proto-king or something, i forget, they do build their hall out of its bones though.
Why would you assume that dragons have always been a part of the westerosi tradition/landscape/history/etc when that is clearly inconsistent with everything that has been written?
Dragonsteel appears for one of the 3 reasons i mentioned above.
Again im on the road i cant do much fact checking. But im pretty sure the one and only indication anywhere in the books is the mention of Dragonsteel in the nw records, and its far more likely thats just an error on grrms part or that the record isnt as old as we think it is.
Basically the options are:
valryia is older than we are told (not likely at all, val being like the roman Empire with record keeping etc)
The wall is much younger than we are told (more likely, the age of heroes being oral tradition/folklore/myth/legend)
Grrm messed up once, in his most rework/rewritten/edited novel (affc. Also likely)
I don't understand why what im saying is some "theory". There were no dragons in westeros prior to aegon the conqueror. Ie 300 years ago ie firmly consistent with the lore and world of the novels as written thus far. Not a case of unreliable narrator, unless grrm is the narrator. So why does the word dragonsteel appear once in the old nw records? There are no stories, myths, folklore, old nan tales, etc in westeros prior to aegon. There are no dragon eggs laying around, other than the ones the targs brought with them. The only mention of the word dragon at all is from the iron island legends of a sea serpent (dragon) from the age of legends that fights a kraken or there proto-king or something, i forget, they do build their hall out of its bones though.
Why would you assume that dragons have always been a part of the westerosi tradition/landscape/history/etc when that is clearly inconsistent with everything that has been written?
Dragonsteel appears for one of the 3 reasons i mentioned above.
I was thinking that Dragonsteel referred to something forged in a great heat, like a volcano or the fire of a dragon. The Valyrians had access to both, but there were presumably volcanoes somewhere in Westeros, else where did the Children of the Forest get the Dragonglass they gave to the Night's Watch?
So Valyrian steel would be Dragonsteel because of the heat used, but it wouldn't be the only Dragonsteel. It begs the question of where the other Dragonsteel blades went; maybe they belonged to the Children too.
So Valyrian steel would be Dragonsteel because of the heat used, but it wouldn't be the only Dragonsteel. It begs the question of where the other Dragonsteel blades went; maybe they belonged to the Children too.
Cybsled
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Chris
Potato del Grande
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You have no idea what you are talking about, you jump to so many conclusions to discount simple explainations.
Dragonsteel appeared in the records because someone fucking smelted some metal using the breath of a Dragon, FACT. They must have existed before Valyria, FACT unless you think they were magiced out of thin air.
Unreliable narrator is saying that they were first discovered by the Valyrians, like Columbus discovering America IRL when the Vikings already did it. The dragons and the forging did not have to happen on Westeros, they could have put the sword on a BOAT.
It would have been a much bigger deal to have it back then since Dragons were not being bred and lashed to forges by the Valyrians, hence the legend.
Falstaff
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