Abortion

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Sebudai

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Well, that is really odd, but you can believe whatever you want I guess. But it is a belief, not a fact. The fact is that conception creates a new being that doesn't exist before. It has nothing at all to do with souls or magic or whatever. To me, what you are saying is what seems arbitrary. There is a point, but not the actual point of the formation of a new entity? So we just pick based on what? Whatever we feel like using as criteria? To me it just belaboring the point and taking it to the extreme when it really doesn't fit.

I also never said that it isn't "ok", just that it is morally reprehensible.
That's part of my point. Conception doesn't create "a new being," it creates a fertilized egg. I associate beings with things like consciousness, intelligence, ability to feel pain, etc. That ain't a fertilized egg. A fertilized egg is apotentialbeing, so what we're talking about is whether or not it's morally acceptable to deny life to potential beings. If it isn't acceptable, don't we all have an obligation to procreate? Sperm and eggs are "potential beings" too.
 

General Antony

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The sperm exist. The egg exists. Why does it magically become a tragedy to deny a potential being life only after conception? A fertilized egg isn't conscious. it doesn't feel pain. It's simply one step closer in a multi-step process to becoming a conscious being. Why isthatthe point in the process where it's no longer okay to deny another being existence for the sake of our own quality of life?

Basically I don't see the moment of conception as a "stark line." I see it as just one point in a long process, and unless you believe in magic and souls I can't think of a logical reason to declare it the point where it's no longer okay to deny life for another being. I think that point does exist, but I definitely don't think it's at conception.
Yeah OK, let's charge you property taxes based on the potential $1B skyscraper that exists on your land. You must either have an academic job or no job at all to entertain this line of reasoning.
 

chaos

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That's part of my point. Conception doesn't create "a new being," it creates a fertilized egg. I associate beings with things like consciousness, intelligence, ability to feel pain, etc. That ain't a fertilized egg. A fertilized egg is apotentialbeing, so what we're talking about is whether or not it's morally acceptable to deny life to potential beings. If it isn't acceptable, don't we all have an obligation to procreate? Sperm and eggs are "potential beings" too.
The things you associate with "beings" are all subjective and unique to you. Ask someone else to define those things and he will probably have an entirely different answer. A fertilized egg is not comparable to the components that make it, you're stretching definitions razor thin in order to get it to fit this argument you want to make. Saying that conception isn't a distinct line just sounds silly, to me. If you could argue that then you could argue that birth isn't either, shit you can equivocate and move those goalposts as far as you want. Conception is the point of origin.

And, again, I don't think we are obligated to do anything. People take immoral actions every day.Abortionis no different. Just because it is something we happen to support the option of doesn't take away that moral component.
 

Sebudai

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Saying that conception isn't a distinct line just sounds silly, to me. If you could argue that then you could argue that birth isn't either, shit you can equivocate and move those goalposts as far as you want. Conception is the point of origin.
I'm not moving goalposts. I detailed some logical criteria for what constitutes a "being" and I'm applying it. A baby that has been born is conscious, it can feel pain, etc. Ergo, birth is clearly well past the line.

Why do you think a fertilized egg is a being? What logical criteria are you using?
 

chaos

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Sure, to you birth is well past that line. But you are moving the goalposts. I mean, feel pain? That is kind of arbitrary. And I'm not even sure when a fetus is capable of feeling pain. Consciousness is a subjective term. Ask 5 people what that means and they will define it 5 different ways. Your criteria seems arbitrary and has no real bearing on the baby, but rather how you feel about the baby. That is why I say you are moving the goalposts, you selectively pick criteria that makes you feel ok about it. I just don't see why everyone is in such a rush to excuse their thoughts or actions of any moral failings.

I don't think a fertilized egg is a being, I know it is. That is the point when you stop being genetic material from your parents and start being something separate from them. But this is all kind of a bullshit argument, becauseabortionisn't about fertilized eggs. No one is getting anabortionat the 12 hour mark after conception.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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Sure, to you birth is well past that line. But you are moving the goalposts. I mean, feel pain? That is kind of arbitrary.
His point, which I agree with, is that it isn't any less arbitrary than yours. Maybe you are the one moving the goalposts. What we all can agree on is that a conscious being is alive. What we disagree on is the value of life placed on a being without consciousness.Abortiondebates, how do they work?

chaos_sl said:
No one is getting anabortionat the 12 hour mark after conception.
Plan B
 

chaos

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His point, which I agree with, is that it isn't any less arbitrary than yours. Maybe you are the one moving the goalposts. What we all can agree on is that a conscious being is alive. What we disagree on is the value of life placed on a being without consciousness.Abortiondebates, how do they work?


Plan B
I don't think prevention of fertilization is the same asabortion.

I do not think my line is arbitrary, I think it is pretty well defined. The concept of consciousness is just that, a concept, and is not well defined. We probably can't even all agree what that is much less when that occurs. I've seen people say that they draw the line when the fetus has a nervous system, which I suspect they say because they think it makes them sound smart. Without realizing, of course, that the nervous system is formed at 10 weeks and will not be complete until the (born) child is like 7 years old. Again, hazy lines and distinctions based on whatever the person making it happens to feel. Conception is the obvious marker to me, everything else seems like equivocation.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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I don't think prevention of fertilization is the same asabortion.
ARBITRARY.
Besides which Plan B will do more than that, it'll dump out fertilized eggs too.
I do not think my line is arbitrary,
Wrong
I think it is pretty well defined.
Being well defined has nothing to do with whether it is arbitrary or not. I don't believe anything is alive unless it has at least 3,326 hairs on it's body and sex organs. My definition of life is so well defined!
 

chaos

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I think that having such ill defined criteria is a big part of what makes his line and others so arbitrary. Arbitrary. Arbitrary. I think I will use that word 35 more times today. It doesn't follow any established system that we have in place, it invents criteria and uses personalized definitions for those criteria in order to establish a line further down the road, and for nothing more than a feeling of moral justification. Nothing is really accomplished by moving that line except that some people don't want to feel bad about things, so this way they can avoid that. Where "life" begins is not in question, it is conception.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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Ok Mr. "life is everything". What is it about plant life that we end it so readily without qualm. What is it about human life that makes it so much more valuable than a dog's life? You've yet to provide a concrete reason why yourundeveloped, unsustainable on it's own and yet to achieve consciousness that we all can agree has inarguable valuefertilized eggis completely different than hisundeveloped, unsustainable on it's own and yet to achieve consciousness that we all can agree has inarguable valueegg and sperm. ARBITRARY.
 

Tuco

I got Tuco'd!
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You can call it poorly defined but a zygote is not arbitrary. Arbitrary would be a separate legal classification of second and third trimester fetuses.
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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You can call it poorly defined but a zygote is not arbitrary. Arbitrary would be a separate legal classification of second and third trimester fetuses.
Where you decide you place value on a not yet realized conscious being is arbitrary, not the science behind how that being attains consciousness. I'm not even forabortion, I'm annoyed at the hypocrisy or stubbornness I'm witnessing here. "Your definition is arbitrary but mine isn't"IS SO STUPID.
 

chaos

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ARBITRARY It ARBITRARY isn't ARBITRARY arbitrary ARBITRARY to ARBITRARY value ARBITRARY your ARBITRARY own ARBITRARY species. ARBITRARY What ARBITRARY the ARBITRARY fuck. ARBITRARY The ARBITRARY egg ARBITRARY and ARBITRARY sperm ARBITRARY argument ARBITRARY is ARBITRARY a ARBITRARY strawman. ARBITRARY That ARBITRARY is ARBITRARY not ARBITRARY an ARBITRARY organism, ARBITRARY that ARBITRARY is ARBITRARY genetic ARBITRARY material.

ARBITRARY
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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ARBITRARY It ARBITRARY isn't ARBITRARY arbitrary ARBITRARY to ARBITRARY value ARBITRARY your ARBITRARY own ARBITRARY species. ARBITRARY What ARBITRARY the ARBITRARY fuck. ARBITRARY The ARBITRARY egg ARBITRARY and ARBITRARY sperm ARBITRARY argument ARBITRARY is ARBITRARY a ARBITRARY strawman. ARBITRARY That ARBITRARY is ARBITRARY not ARBITRARY an ARBITRARY organism, ARBITRARY that ARBITRARY is ARBITRARY genetic ARBITRARY material.

ARBITRARY
Cool post bro. Better hope you don't get an infraction.
 

chaos

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Nah I didn't multi-quote so I think I'm ok.

But, as I said, two completely different things.
 

chaos

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What do you mean by "equivalent?" Seems arbitrary, bro.

Do I value all life? Sure, why not?
 

The Ancient_sl

shitlord
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What do you mean by "equivalent?" Seems arbitrary, bro.

Do I value all life? Sure, why not?
Equivalence is not an arbitrary concept. Worse than a "strawman" is the way you keep disparaging any argument by calling it arbitrary. You keep doing it like it makes you some sort of master debater too, it doesn't make your position look particularly strong.

Would you place equivalent value on a brain dead human and a conscious one? It's not a difficult question, clearly we both already know the answer to it. Is the difference between a brain dead already born human and a fertilized egg arbitrary? Is the difference between a fertilized egg and an almost fertilized egg arbitrary?
(hint: the answer to both of those is no)
BONUS ROUND:
Is the difference between the conscious mother who has to carry a child to conscious being and the zygote developing inside her arbitrary?
 

Selix

Lord Nagafen Raider
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I don't think a fertilized egg is a being, I know it is. That is the point when you stop being genetic material from your parents and start being something separate from them. But this is all kind of a bullshit argument, becauseabortionisn't about fertilized eggs. No one is getting anabortionat the 12 hour mark after conception.
So is it valid to infer from this statement that your definition of "human being" does not include conciousness? If I were to go further and would your definition resemble this "A human being is one with genetic code seperate from another human that could possibly develop through birth."