Tarrant
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Adventures with Lyrical: Buying a Business (REPOST)
- Thread starter Shonuff
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
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Tmac
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Yeah, the GoT reference doesn't gel since his job is totally unrelated to theirs. It'd be like Sansa having to prove herself to the warriors. She's not a warrior. The world of politics and looking pretty is completely different.
In the same way, Sales Guy isn't a laborer. His world is completely different.
I will give you that he started off as a laborer, so obviously all jokes apply, but you pivoted his role into something much more successful. He out making money for the laborers. If they can't see this on their own, you'll have to spell it out for them.
Sales Guy is far more valuable.
OneofOne
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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I dunno, on this single issue I'm with Lyrical. I don't know what you sell Tarrant, but it does seem to me the kid needs to have a good understanding of the work he's selling to accurately price it. I mean, he's not selling something static like vacuums or time shares.
That said I do think you, Lyrical, might be pushing back too hard, or in the wrong way. None of us were there for the conversation in which you said "Who the fuck do you think you are?", but I'd put odds you got bent out of shape when you shouldn't have. If the kid is showing such enthusiasm and initiative, it seems it would be better to direct it than simply try to squash it. If he's commenting on you changing how you do things, perhaps instead of telling him off you'd be better served by saying something to the effect of "While I appreciate your initiative in your work, it makes more sense for you to learn and understand why we do the things here the way we do before suggesting changes. I'm always open to feedback, but I'd like to see more experience under your belt before you offer it." I'm not saying coddle the guy, but treat him how you would want to be treated when you were starting out.
Re: the kid's relationship with your laborers, that's his issue, and not something you should be worrying about. He'll figure it out or he won't. They don't need to be bosom buddies after all. At the absolute most, as has been suggested, if the guys say anything to you, be honest - "Yeah, he can't do your job very well, but when you can do his job as well as he does, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then respect him for what he does and try to help him out. Him understanding your job better makes your life easier."
That said I do think you, Lyrical, might be pushing back too hard, or in the wrong way. None of us were there for the conversation in which you said "Who the fuck do you think you are?", but I'd put odds you got bent out of shape when you shouldn't have. If the kid is showing such enthusiasm and initiative, it seems it would be better to direct it than simply try to squash it. If he's commenting on you changing how you do things, perhaps instead of telling him off you'd be better served by saying something to the effect of "While I appreciate your initiative in your work, it makes more sense for you to learn and understand why we do the things here the way we do before suggesting changes. I'm always open to feedback, but I'd like to see more experience under your belt before you offer it." I'm not saying coddle the guy, but treat him how you would want to be treated when you were starting out.
Re: the kid's relationship with your laborers, that's his issue, and not something you should be worrying about. He'll figure it out or he won't. They don't need to be bosom buddies after all. At the absolute most, as has been suggested, if the guys say anything to you, be honest - "Yeah, he can't do your job very well, but when you can do his job as well as he does, you'll have a leg to stand on. Until then respect him for what he does and try to help him out. Him understanding your job better makes your life easier."
Tarrant
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Grooming him to close big contracts has nothing to do with earning respect of the laborers and saying he's one of them.
OneofOne, I work in telecommunications. While I don't know every technical point of the job, I do have a basic understanding of it yes.
He does need a proper understanding of product he's selling, in this case, the labor of other individuals to do a job. He's already off to a great start and showing lots of ambition. Is he still green behind the ears, yes. But he's out selling everyone who CAN sell those big jobs by 5:1 by Lyricals own words. That right there again tells me the kid needs to be nurtured, not put in his place. Mold him, don't beat him into the shape you want him to be because as I said, it'll kill his drive. At this point you shouldn't want to change to much about him, just tweak his finer points and let him go.
He doesn't need to prove anything to the laborers. They are different people in different positions doing different jobs. I don't care if some of my techs don't respect me because I can't do their job and I know they don't care that I laugh at them when they try to sell little upgrades when they are on the job and clal me and ask me to close those for them. In the end though we know we need one another to fulfill the job and task at hand and that's all that needs to be understood.
OneofOne, I work in telecommunications. While I don't know every technical point of the job, I do have a basic understanding of it yes.
He does need a proper understanding of product he's selling, in this case, the labor of other individuals to do a job. He's already off to a great start and showing lots of ambition. Is he still green behind the ears, yes. But he's out selling everyone who CAN sell those big jobs by 5:1 by Lyricals own words. That right there again tells me the kid needs to be nurtured, not put in his place. Mold him, don't beat him into the shape you want him to be because as I said, it'll kill his drive. At this point you shouldn't want to change to much about him, just tweak his finer points and let him go.
He doesn't need to prove anything to the laborers. They are different people in different positions doing different jobs. I don't care if some of my techs don't respect me because I can't do their job and I know they don't care that I laugh at them when they try to sell little upgrades when they are on the job and clal me and ask me to close those for them. In the end though we know we need one another to fulfill the job and task at hand and that's all that needs to be understood.
Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Every thing you said above is true. I did get bent out of shape (maybe a little bit too much), but it's because his industry certs are way more important than anything else he can do right now. I was shocked, because instead of having a plan in place to get those, he was trying to revamp systems that I've already looked at revamping. This is our busiest month of the year typically, and he needs more knowledge. Right now, if a customer started asking technical questions, he'd get buried.
Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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ding ding ding we have a winner
He's stated he wants to be a Manager, and I can use two Managers, so that is the endgame here. And he'll never truely understand how to cost the job if he can't do it himself. One thing I learned working at a big box retailer is to always have a successor in place. I want to cram as much knowledge about the industry that I can into his brain, so I can promote from within. Every other guy I've made the Manager had 15-20 years industry experience, he's got six months. Even if I don't lose my Manager, at our sales growth rate (about 30% this year), I'm definitely going to need more Managers. So he is being groomed.
Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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He doesn't need a loving relationship with the laborers, he needs a working relationship with them. If he doesn't earn their respect, and he tells them to do something, they'll do the opposite. He is perceived as an outsider, and I'm purposefully making him work with the crews so they'll see him as an insider. A few years back, I had the same problem. I hired a guy as an Estimator when I had a Manager in place. This guy had 17 years experience, and was great with customers. The first day I put him out to run bids, he picked up $10k in work. He proved to be a great asset to the company. Can you believe they did every thing they could to run him off? Pretty much, if you are estimating, you'll be in charge one day. I don't need a Superstar technical guy as a Manager, I need a guy who communicates well. The guys get jealous when someone else is being fast tracked. Believe me, I'd rather take one of them, but they just don't have charisma to talk to customers.
In the above case, it took about six months for that other Estimator to be accepted. Whenever I had a chance, I worked him in with the guys. If a bid was priced too low, or they needed an extra hand, I sent him. After awhile, it reinforced in the guys' minds that he was there to help. And I talked him up the whole time. It will take time, but I can do the same with YB.
Tarrant
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Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Opposite might be too strongly worded, but at times, they've undermined the guy above them if they didn't like him. The reality is that the industry standard is that it costs $250k to train a Crew Leader. So, if they both walk, it's a 500k loss. At times, it feels like it's Crew Leaders vs. everyone else. You can't run a business in my industry without one Crew Leader, and they know it. If they want to come in and take a shit on everyone, they will try. My guys are great workers (only one guy in 25 will be able to do what I expect) and they could literally get a job within five minutes based on their reputation alone. So a lot of times, I'm walking a tight rope trying to balance things. I remind the Crew Leaders that they wouldn't have any work, so quit undermining the Estimators. It's the typical blue collar mentality, where they think that the only function of the business is their technical expertise, and that everyone else is worthless. So then they say to fire everyone else that can't work as well as they do. They don't realize that there is more to this than just working.
In this company, Crew Leaders have had the power to fire people. They don't even have to ask me for permission. This is because what some laborers have done in the past is work hard when the boss is there, and when he leaves, sit down on the job and ignore the Crew Leader. They don't do this any more, when they know the Crew Leader can send them home. But I have to remind them, that's for laborers. You aren't going to be able to fire a sales guy, no matter how hard you try. I've said to my one Crew Leader, in particular, who doesn't like sales guys, that without that sales person, you'd have no check this week. It just doesn't sink in.
Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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He's also one of the more productive guys in the area, and when he's on a job, productivity jumps 20-25% for the whole team because he demands excellence. So I put up with it.
Imagine what will happen when he finds outs I'm paying YB almost what he's making. He's been here ten years, YB has no industry experience (a few months). I'm sure they'll ignore the fact that YB picks up $4-6k a day because he's been blessed by God to have a trustworthy face. I make sure that no one else sees YB's check. Last week, he made more than the Crew Leaders because he's been working longer hours.
Tuco
I got Tuco'd!
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Tarrant I have no idea why you are displaying such a burning desire to be right about something you know almost nothing about. Lyrical puts out a few paragraphs about a section of his business and you make gross assumptions and criticisms about his philosophy from it.
Tarrant
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Right about what? I agree with him pretty much on everything other then the fact that a salesman and laborers need to love one another. Where am I making gross assumptions about anything? I know sales, I'd pit my knowledge of it against anyone elses here and while I won't say I'm the most knowledge one here I will say I'm more than qualified to talk about it.
I've also ran a business though not Lyrical scale, that has nothing to do with the present discussion.
All I did was offer insight, which is what in part, this thread is about. Also, I'm not the only one to disagree with how he handled the situation nor am I the only one to disagree with him on how his estimator and crews need to have some weird level of admiration and respect for one another.
There's nothing here to white knight Tuco, I don't get your response at all. Salesman shows incentive and Lyrical slapped him in the face for it. That's a recipe for disaster. I know it, I've seen it countless times. After he went more into detail on his plans I see more along his reasoning which is why I dropped that part and simply said one of his team leads is stupid. Which he is, which Lyrical even called him thick headed about the whole thing pretty much. So again...we pretty much agreed there too.
Tmac47 disagreed too, I'll wait for you to call him out too.
EDIT: I've been a follower of this thread for a long time both on FoH and here and was one of the people who said Lyrical needed to go the route he did and hire the type of person he did. He was admittedly against it for the longest time and here we are now. That's what this thread is in part all about. He and I have talked back and forth in this thread for literally years and sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't but I've never once flamed him nor would I ever dream of doing so. I respect him and enjoy talking about this shit with him. Why am I suddenly getting shit from you about it?
I've also ran a business though not Lyrical scale, that has nothing to do with the present discussion.
All I did was offer insight, which is what in part, this thread is about. Also, I'm not the only one to disagree with how he handled the situation nor am I the only one to disagree with him on how his estimator and crews need to have some weird level of admiration and respect for one another.
There's nothing here to white knight Tuco, I don't get your response at all. Salesman shows incentive and Lyrical slapped him in the face for it. That's a recipe for disaster. I know it, I've seen it countless times. After he went more into detail on his plans I see more along his reasoning which is why I dropped that part and simply said one of his team leads is stupid. Which he is, which Lyrical even called him thick headed about the whole thing pretty much. So again...we pretty much agreed there too.
Tmac47 disagreed too, I'll wait for you to call him out too.
EDIT: I've been a follower of this thread for a long time both on FoH and here and was one of the people who said Lyrical needed to go the route he did and hire the type of person he did. He was admittedly against it for the longest time and here we are now. That's what this thread is in part all about. He and I have talked back and forth in this thread for literally years and sometimes we agree and sometimes we don't but I've never once flamed him nor would I ever dream of doing so. I respect him and enjoy talking about this shit with him. Why am I suddenly getting shit from you about it?
Shonuff
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Just remember that there are multiple ways to solve problems. What experiences you've had, others have had different. When I first started in sales (out of college), my first district was about $20 million a year. The bosses yelled first and often, especially when someone need an adjustment. Maybe I overreacted, but that's what I was taught.
I revisited the situation with him today, and he's agreed he needs to focus on getting his certs above all else. He's also sent a proposal on revamping billing to the Secretary that I asked him to do. He's got a lot of energy, I'm just trying to focus him on what's important. I stole him from another company, where he had a supervisory role, and managed to get him for the same pay. The only reason he gave me for leaving was that he felt he had skills they weren't using. So he pretty much quit the other company out of boredom.
He's said he's going to get all of his certs in three months, I told him take six. Apparently, he's been studying late nights already at home. Also, he's working Saturday, it's 4pm, and he plans on staying until 8. I've tried sending him home, he wants to stay.
The kid reminds me of me when I was 23.
I revisited the situation with him today, and he's agreed he needs to focus on getting his certs above all else. He's also sent a proposal on revamping billing to the Secretary that I asked him to do. He's got a lot of energy, I'm just trying to focus him on what's important. I stole him from another company, where he had a supervisory role, and managed to get him for the same pay. The only reason he gave me for leaving was that he felt he had skills they weren't using. So he pretty much quit the other company out of boredom.
He's said he's going to get all of his certs in three months, I told him take six. Apparently, he's been studying late nights already at home. Also, he's working Saturday, it's 4pm, and he plans on staying until 8. I've tried sending him home, he wants to stay.
The kid reminds me of me when I was 23.
Tmac
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Anyways, I don't think Tarrant was being unreasonable. I agree with pretty much everything he was saying. He's just very adamant about it.
Plus, we'd already addressed the matter Tyco mentioned.
As far as him being groomed to work as a Team Leader, I think that'd be a misappropriation of talent. Kid's a salesman, not a team leader. If you want to build a sales team around him, that'd be one thing. But, moving his focus over to a more tactical on-site position would be a total disservice to his "art" and your company, imo.
If I'm missing something, feel free to slap me around.