Adventures with lyrical - buying a business

Shonuff

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Desx said:
Do you use the same CPA as the previous owner?
I didn"t answer this question. I plan on using the CPA the previous owner had, because they were able to shield the seller from about 150K-200K in taxes last year (legally). We had to have the guy come in, and he charges $80 an hour, even for small talk. He records every conversation, so if I were to pick up the phone and talk about the weather, this sucker would be charging me. I feel like I am getting nickelled and dimed.
 

Shonuff

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blizzak said:
I work nights 5 days a week and I typically put in about 6 and a half hours a night. In 3 years everything we owe will be paid off and I can then start to look for a good employee and drop down to a couple hours a day. Our spending habits and income haven"t changed much if at all, but we don"t like being in debt so we won"t splurge much until we are clear.
Don"t you worry about not having staff? I had to call in sick today for the first time (with the Flu I think), and it is definitely nice to have a secretary, manager and assistant manager to pick up the slack. I will also be visiting family next week, but we"ll still be open for business. I can"t imagine not having back-up = we"d have to shut down every time I wasn"t there.

Another reason that businesses get put up for sale is when the owner gets sick, and doesn"t have staff to keep running.
 

Tuco

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Finally read the thread, thanks for posting it.

How much debt do you have now, and how much will you have before you buy another business?
 

Snugglebear_foh

shitlord
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I hope Lyrical is a real successful black dood and not just another intricate Khorum-esque troll. His posts make me want to read this board moar.
 

Shonuff

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Tuco said:
Finally read the thread, thanks for posting it.

How much debt do you have now, and how much will you have before you buy another business?
No problem. The process was pure hell, but maybe someone else can learn something from my errors and save six months" if they decide they want to do it themselves. After going through a gruelling year of getting jerked around, I wouldn"t wish it on my worst enemy.

I will be open about my debt. The business is trending to do 350-400K this year. I paid 650K. So that is less than two times earnings (most businesses sell for two to three times earnings). Last year, it did 300K. The sales price was based off of last year. While we were in negotiations, the seller had some two killer months where he was netting 50K. He actually had four months this year where he netted 50K each month. The seller could have actually tried to raise the price (because the purchase contract had enough loopholes), but the broker didn"t want to push it, as he had other deals where the seller thought the current year would be better, so he raised the price, and then the buyer walked.

Right now, with 10% down, I owe about 600K. I took out 20K from my 150K line of credit because some customers pay late. Its a classic b-school analysis. You have a business with a strong cash flow, but customers take up to 90 days to pay. You have to account for the cash flow you are outlaying for business ops in those months. Some people get into business, and don"t account for this. A friend of mine bought a business in a non-bank deal (the owner financed the deal). But he forgot about the pesky little thing called working capital. They are making money, but forgot that customers pay later, and they put every penny into owner financing.

Some people forget that you can"t pay bills with accounts receivable, you have to find ways to convert your A/R into cash.

Having worked for Corporate America for so long, I have known people that have made the jump and gotten into trouble, so I try to learn from their mistakes. I monitor my cash flow pretty close. Customers get billed pretty quick. When you go from a corporation that has billions of dollars in resources, to being a small business owner, you have to make adjustments. We just don"t have the capital that we are used to having. So far, we"ve done a little over 50K in sales in last three weeks, yet 80% of our customers have paid us in the form of checks. We only have about $9,500 in receivables right now. At this rate, I am hoping to be able to not draw down any more from the credit line and have the business be able to live off of its own operations. Typically, this is the slow time of year for the business, and we are struggling to keep one week of business on the schedule. We are still netting about $5K a week, but unfortunately, people start to think about Thanksgiving, Christmas and New Year"s more than they do about landscaping. The business typically loses money/hovers at break-even in December and January, and makes money the rest of the year. In the Spring and Summer months, we"ll have six weeks of work backlogged, and then you have different struggles (like trying to keep customers on the schedule after they"ve waited a month).

I also realize that most b-school students ignore limited resources. In my program, a professor gave us three projects and told us that we only had money for one, so pick the best one. The majority of the class tried to vote to do all three. B-school students are notorious for trying to spend way more than even banks will lend.


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After paying ourselves we have 30K put aside for buying a new business. Another few months, we"ll have the down payment to buy another business this size.I really hope that it won"t take another year for me to find another good business that will pass the strenuous due diligence I will put it under.

I am also starting to think that as the recession goes longer, than we"ll start to see business valuations come down. Right now, everyone wants their pre-recession 2007 price, but after a year"s worth of bad earnings, hopefully they"ll lower their price. A problem is that most businesses are down 20% this year, yet they still want three times earnings, which for alot of businesses equates to four times earnings. At four times earnings, unless there is a huge cash flow, most banks won"t want to finance the deal. Oddly enough, if you have a really high cash flow, than the debt service you pay to the bank becomes smaller as a percentage of the NOB (net owner benefit). In other words, if you pay 200K for a business with an NOB of 50K a year, it hurts your net way more than if you paid $2 million for a business with an annual NOB of 500K.

I do know that theMillionaire Next Doortalks about how the more mundane a business is, the more profitable it tends to be, because it doesn"t invite as much competition. Most people ask what type of business I own, and when I tell them the specific type of category, their eyes glaze over. Its boooorrrrriiiiingggg. Yet we bill our customers $225 an hour, and in the peak times, run two crews both billing at a combined rate of $450 an hour. But our marginal costs per hour (mostly labor, gas and equipment repairs) in the peak ties are just a little over $100 an hour.
 

Shonuff

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Yeesh, I just went through my business files, and in the course of a year, I looked very closely at 18 businesses (spending several weeks on each one), conducted due diligence on 4, and bought 1. That"s alot of nights and weekend time. Brokers and sellers will sell you the moon and tell you they have a risk free business, but with the 18 businesses I scrutinized,16 of them had major problems that were hidden by the broker and seller.And they could only be found by digging through the books, multiple meetings with the sellers and brokers, talking with the customers, observing operations, calling competitors, etc.

On one of the business that I was looking at for three weeks, some idiot met with the seller for 45 minutes, only looked at the P&L published by the broker and seller, and paid full price on the business. That type of behavior is just asking for a bankruptcy.
 

Lendarios

Trump's Staff
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Great story lyrical. I want to be able to start my own business of software developing. Its discouraging knowing that your company charges $125-150 an hour for the work that i do, but i only see 25% of that.
 

Psyqo_foh

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Great thread. Keep us updated. Good luck in this recession (it"s going to be lonnnnggg) but it seems like you have a head on your shoulders and the right attitude about running a company.
 

Tuco

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Lyrical said:
After paying ourselves we have 30K put aside for buying a new business. Another few months, we"ll have the down payment to buy another business this size
With the amount of money you"re generating, why not stave off extra expenses/charity for some measure of time until you can pay off your debt and buy a business without requiring much if any credit? Is the gain from using credit to purchase business enough for your strategy?

edit: well deserved avatar change btw.
 

Shonuff

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Tuco said:
With the amount of money you"re generating, why not stave off extra expenses/charity for some measure of time until you can pay off your debt and buy a business without requiring much if any credit? Is the gain from using credit to purchase business enough for your strategy?
I believe you get back what you give. Pay it forward and all. I have given to charities even when times are tough and the budget has been tight. The problem with the world as we see it now is that everyone is worried about "me and my four and no more." /end sermonette.

As far as getting out of debt, I thought about that. I think the best way to look at this is the marginal decision of paying down the debt versus buying another business.

If I paid down 600K in debt, it might take a couple of years, and that would only be if I wasn"t paying taxes. I could choose to dodge taxes like most business owners do, but I will be honest and do everything legal.

So let"s say I pay down 600K. The business nets 30K a month on average, and my payment to the bank is $5,900 a month. So I could plowbakc every penny for a few years, and increase my net by 20%.

Or I could plow back a few months" earnings at 30K a month, and have 30K times 3, or 90K for another business. Assuming I find a business this same size, I would be netting 50-60K a month, rather than about 30K.

Wouldn"t it be a better use of money to spend 90K to make 50-60K, and do it it in a few months, versus spending 600K over several years to make another 6K a month?

Wouldn"t it be smarter to diversify? Most enterepeneurs I know that get in trouble are in trouble because they only have one business. To me, its like having a stock portfolio of one stock. Sooner or later, the systemic risk of the one industry is going to bite you in the ass.

I am thinking I"d rather have three businesses generating 100K a month, and then get debtless. I actually have some more crazy ass ideas along these lines, but you guys would think I am crazy.

Tuco said:
Is the gain from using credit to purchase business enough for your strategy?
I like Donald Trump"s viewpoint on debt. He says to use OPM (Other"s People Money). Why should I use my own money to make money, when I can use someone else"s? Not all debt is bad if you generate a sufficient ROI.
 

Shonuff

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Um, which mod added that guy to my handle? I always thought if I were to have one on my posting avatar, it would be the guy from "There Will Be Blood."

edit: nm
 

Tuco

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fpine whatever dont like my monopoly avatar gift to you and instead run to daniel day lewis getting some preaching
 

Silence_sl

shitlord
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Lyrical said:
Um, which mod added that guy to my handle? I always thought if I were to have one on my posting avatar, it would be the guy from "There Will Be Blood."

edit: nm
It works.
 

Shonuff

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Tuco said:
fpine whatever dont like my monopoly avatar gift to you and instead run to daniel day lewis getting some preaching
ROFL. I was thinking about maybe another scene where he tells someone off or bludgeons someone to death
 

Shonuff

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Snugglebear said:
I hope Lyrical is a real successful black dood and not just another intricate Khorum-esque troll. His posts make me want to read this board moar.
This thread has been therapeutic for me. I have worked incredibly hard in since college, and the last year has been hell. But its like Diddy said in the one song called " "Mo Money, "Mo problems." Other than my Dad, and two best friends, no one knows about it in RL. I don"t want a ton of problems with family and friends all asking me for money, treating me differently, or acting trippy. They"ll never know.

Being able to use Internet anonymity makes it easier to talk about it. No one in RL will know.

But even moreso, I like to hear other people"s stories, because I want to learn.
 

Silence_sl

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Lyrical said:
This thread has been therapeutic for me. I have worked incredibly hard in since college, and the last year has been hell. But its like Diddy said in the one song called " "Mo Money, "Mo problems." Other than my Dad, and two best friends, no one knows about it in RL. I don"t want a ton of problems with family and friends all asking me for money, treating me differently, or acting trippy. They"ll never know.

Being able to use Internet anonymity makes it easier to talk about it. No one in RL will know.

But even moreso, I like to hear other people"s stories, because I want to learn.
Can you front me $50 till pay day?
 

Snugglebear_foh

shitlord
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Lyrical said:
This thread has been therapeutic for me. I have worked incredibly hard in since college, and the last year has been hell. But its like Diddy said in the one song called " "Mo Money, "Mo problems." Other than my Dad, and two best friends, no one knows about it in RL. I don"t want a ton of problems with family and friends all asking me for money, treating me differently, or acting trippy. They"ll never know.

Being able to use Internet anonymity makes it easier to talk about it. No one in RL will know.

But even moreso, I like to hear other people"s stories, because I want to learn.
Yeah, having a brokeass family makes you want to hide your success for sure. Members of my family have gone to prison for dumb shit like beating up old ladies to get their checks. God knows what they would do to me.
 

Shonuff

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Snugglebear said:
Yeah, having a brokeass family makes you want to hide your success for sure. Members of my family have gone to prison for dumb shit like beating up old ladies to get their checks. God knows what they would do to me.
Coming from a poor family is the worst (my wife"s side is even poorer). They make all of these jealous comments about how I am spending too much money, but in actuality, I don"t think we spend more than 15% of our income now, while they devour more than 100% of their meager incomes on every little stupid thing (through the use of credit card debt). Seriously, when I made the type of money they did, I didn"t blow money like they do, I budgeted like mad. And they won"t take promotions on the job, because they don"t want the headache of dealing with people, and they wonder why they aren"t making any money. I took every promotion that came my way.

Its like they live in this fantasy world where they don"t budget, they take take any promotions, they take no risk, and yet they somehow think things will get better. My brother-in-law makes the ugliest comments, and I just keep my mouth shut while I make more in a day than he does in a month.
 

dolaan_foh

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This has been a great read I really appreciate it.

I have been considering this for a while now, although I considered a restaurant as my brother is at CIA so someday soon I will have a Chef. But I know restaurants are fairly risky so I was thinking diversifying by owning multiple businesses that are not related sound like a great idea. Main reason I chose a restaurant is that I would love the work and have a genuine interest in the subject.

Where did you look to find local businesses that are for sale? I am not ready yet but it does not hurt to start looking and beginning the process so when I am ready with cash in hand I know what to look for and especially what to avoid.

I have talked to a few friends of mine from grad school and we have considered a startup Pharmaceutical Company. We have a few ideas but without a way to bring in constant cash it is hard to find the money to do the R&D necessary to really get the company working. One advantage is though if you have good research you can get government grants, which would help a bunch. Most of the friends I am talking about are Post-Docs just trying to keep funding (very hard lately) and I am working at large Pharma but hate the work. I feel as I have sold out.

Any comments would be great and good luck in your endeavors,