Adventures with lyrical - buying a business

Shonuff

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Eomer said:
I don"t really agree. While me and my brother don"t always get along great, and we"re most definitely not close (I would never call him up and be like "hey want to go for a beer?", as we have never done such a thing socially), I can trust him 100% and vice versa. I never have to worry that he"s going to steal from me or the company, or really do anything that"s not in our best interests overall. My dad and one uncle had a similar relationship, however their youngest brother had to go out and start his own company as he couldn"t get along with the two older brothers.

That"s not always the case with people and their family/friends, I agree. I guess we"re both lucky that way. I agree that involving family/friends as professionals such as your lawyer or accountant is a bad idea. Because if they fuck something up that costs you a lot of money or worse, you don"t want to worry about pissing off family because you"re suing a cousin or uncle or something. My dad had a bad experience with a brother in law being his lawyer, and swore he"d never make the same mistake again.
I"ve seen so many nightmares with family owned businesses. 90% of them get along dysfunctionally. If they aren"t taking out all of the cash they can legally, they are sneaking in the cash register stealing. Or they are banging the employees and risking a huge lawsuit. Or they aren"t pulling their weight, only showing up to get a paycheck and letting the other family members do all the work. Or they get in a power trip and reverse each other"s orders to employees when the original decision was the right one to make, just to spite the other family members (even if it means losing profits). My favorite was my friend who owned a dealership, and his minority partner (as in only owned 10% of the company) spent all of his time trying to bang any female customer in the back of his minivan. He told every female customer that walked in the door he"d give them $500 off if they would screw him. How do you think that went over when their husbands found out? How do you think they enjoyed being called a prostitute as soon as they walked in? It goes on and on.

If I can"t control the whole deal, I"m not doing it. My wife comes from a family of moochers, and I"ve had to put my foot down.
 

Shonuff

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Izuldan said:
One is that your are in a very small town, with apparently only 5 commercial buildings in it? That"s tiny. That means your potential clientele is small. You mentioned people travel miles to come to your area, but you need to figure out what your capitated growth is for your area. The current place you work at, how many clients do they have? What"s the growth rate of clients year-to-year? What about revenue/client, how has that changed year-to-year? If it"s gone flat, then the current business is at it"s maximum revenue, barring any changes. How do you expect your business to do compared to that? Also....the larger city they drive from.....is there no good fish store there? If a good fish store was to open in the city, how largely would that affect your business? Would you be able to survive if you could no longer draw customers from that city? Would you be better served to open up your store in the city instead?
I was thinking the same thing. In a small town like that, it doesn"t sound like there is any room to grow. Why sell 100 fish a month max, when you could sell that in a week?
 

Corndog

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I must have worded it incorrectly. The store I manage now is 5 building town. I"ll be opening in a much larger city. The street I"m targeting, basically has 30k-45k daily passerby traffic. For the past 5 years I"ve been commuting 45 mins to and from work every day to basically learn the ropes of the business.

Our small store does well because of fish health. In reality there is no other store in the state currently that does fish health as well as we do. There are stores that are closer to clients, but they don"t do it as well. We cater to more expereinced hobbyists. Once you have several hundreds of dollars invested in you fish tank, 1 sick fish brought home can kill them all. A basic neon tetra sells for $1.99 at every petsmart, petco, mom and pop store etc. People will drive over an hour to come buy ours for $2.49 because we have the reputation of healthy fish and back it up with actual healthy fish. So while our competitors beat us on price on everything. We take their customers away.

The store that is considered one of the best by the hobbyists is convient. They stay open late on weekdays but close early on weekends. Their fish are definitely hit or miss, but they bring in some rare stuff. In the city they"re in, the rent is insane high.They also have the reputation of being rude. Yelp reviews are bad for them being rude etc. That"s from the general public, hobbyists like their rare fish. That"s the problem, I want to sell to general public and grab some of the hobbyist crowd. Hobbyists tend to drive to whatever store that has what they want, doesn"t matter how far away.

I"m looking to open outside of the large city but in driving distance within an hour.

Big City Population: 616k
City with low rent property : 53k
City between my house and low prop rent : 36k
City I live in pop: 103k
Lastly, the town the store I currently manage is in Pop: 91 - thats right, less than 100 people.

I"m 40 minutes way from the big city. The low prop rent place is 20 minutes away.

I ideally want to open in the city I live, but I"ve obviously been looking at areas between me and the big city.

The big city rental rates can be $6 a sqft. Cities around it are typically $1-$3 a sqft depending on area.
 

opiate82_foh

shitlord
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0
Izuldan said:
Yes, multi-year contracts have a built-in rent adjustment, usually in the neighborhood if 2-4% annually. It won"t matter much in the short run, but also you have to be careful signing a long term lease, a mistake I made with my first business. I signed a 10-year lease instead of a 5, and it"s costing me a lot of money. I should have signed a 5 and then re-negotiated another 5 after my first lease was up.
I always go for a 5 year with another 5 year option I can execute. Every time I extend I make sure to get another 5 year option tacked on. In this climate you should have no problem getting a clause like that.
 

Blazin

Creative Title
<Nazi Janitors>
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Izuldan said:
and Blazin, what type of business are you in?
I"m a contractor exclusively serving the food processing industry. So I certainly agree with the finding a niche within a trade, my margins are more than double the average industrial contractor. Niche"s just take more effort to learn a specialized trade but once you do you"ll find demand just starts pouring in.

If you are a major food supplier with the USDA threatening to shutdown your million dollar a day production line they dont call the local handy man in the yellow pages, they call me and are willing to pay a significant amount to have it handled quickly and professionaly.
 

General Antony

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Brutul Tarew Marr said:
With regard to insurance, there is a fairly new product for insuring pasture land based on rainfall. It"s very expensive though, and the payoff is suspect. This year was the dryest year we have had since 2004 and I bought insurance for March, April, and May at the rate of about $5000 and they wrote me a check for $300. My neighbors that I have talked to are similarly unhappy with it and we may drop it next year.
What company do you buy this product from? I"m curious about how it works.

You and your neighbors may want to contact your state"s department of insurance. A new product...they could just be ripping people off.
 

Evelys_foh

shitlord
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General Antony said:
What company do you buy this product from? I"m curious about how it works.

You and your neighbors may want to contact your state"s department of insurance. A new product...they could just be ripping people off.
Make the streets run red with insurer blood.
 
Izuldan said:
Brutal, I know jack shit about the cattle business, but is it true that almost all the beef we eat comes from like 2 or 3 companies, like Cargill? So it makes it hard for smaller ranchers like yourself?
This is sort of true, but the monopoly in beef is in the feeders and packers. My place is what"s called a cow/calf operation. We have a herd of breeding cattle that give birth in the spring and when the calves are ready to wean in October we sell them to the feed lots. The beef is sold to you by the big companies but most of them are born on smaller family places like mine so the big boys are my customers, not my competition.

Izuldan said:
Also, again this just be my naivety talking, but what about switching to other animals? I keep hearing that buffalo is very profitable, but then again I"ve never looked into it myself.
I don"t claim to be an expert on this, but things like this are a niche market and subject to trends. Bison meat may be popular right now, but you could drop a ton of cash switching over and then find out that a bunch of other people did the same thing, or people lost interest in bison in the interim. I remember when I was in high school a bunch of people were buying and selling ostriches because ostrich meat was going to be the next big thing. Never happened. Another issue is that bison are not really domesticated animals. Based on what I have heard from people who have worked with them they walk through barbed wire fences, destroy corrals, and have to be worked almost completely using fancy corral systems because it"s not safe to go in the pen with them. I think I"ll leave that to Ted Turner. Oh and my neighbors would kill me :p.

Izuldan said:
[edit] and I have to ask, why did you switch back to ranching? It sounds like a nightmare with all the family drama, and you took a paycut. It doesn"t sound like it"s worth the hassle, so I hope you are getting something out of it.
It"s a little bit of an "If you have to ask, you wouldn"t understand" situation, but ranching is a great lifestyle. If you"re an outdoorsy kind of person, a large percentage of the work I do is pretty enjoyable. When I was in California I spent all of my vacation time coming back to the ranch, not because they needed my help so bad, but because it was really my idea of a good time. I have friends that did not come from ag backgrounds who come back year after year once I took them to the ranch one time. One of my college buddies has spent 1-2 weeks here every year since I first brought him out in 1999.

I spend every day outdoors, working with animals and with my hands in the shop. Every season is different so I do something different every 2 or 3 months, and I decide what I"m going to do every day. Getting on a horse or an ATV and cruising around in a beautiful atmosphere is a lot of people"s idea of recreation, but I get to do it every day. A lot of guys work their asses off in corporate America so they can have a nice shop or if they"re really rich a ranch in Montana to spend their weekends in. I work my ass off on the ranch, never get rich, but spend all my time on the ranch or in the shop. It"s not for everyone, but I wouldn"t trade it for having more money and free time in my old life. There"s also the factor of the ranch being home to multiple generations of my family, and seeing it sold would just be horrible.
 
General Antony said:
What company do you buy this product from? I"m curious about how it works.

You and your neighbors may want to contact your state"s department of insurance. A new product...they could just be ripping people off.

https://www.rainhail.com/pdf_files/MKTG/MKTG_4030.pdf

That"s an example of the product. It"s not a scam and the USDA Farm Services Agency is very involved with it, I just think that the premiums are out of whack with the likelihood of a payment and the value of said payments. If people start dropping it they will probably sweeten it a bit but as of now even my insurance agent has said he is thinking about advising people not to buy it.
 

rinthea_foh

shitlord
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Lyrical said:
I was thinking the same thing. In a small town like that, it doesn"t sound like there is any room to grow. Why sell 100 fish a month max, when you could sell that in a week?
I was thinking the same thing when you said you wanted to get into mowing one day to gather business. Why not increase your coverage of other areas instead? That would be my first idea for expansion. Franchise even?
 

Shonuff

Mr. Poopybutthole
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rinthea said:
I was thinking the same thing when you said you wanted to get into mowing one day to gather business. Why not increase your coverage of other areas instead? That would be my first idea for expansion. Franchise even?
We are expanding to an adjacent city of 150k people as we speak. I just committed to $5k a year in that city"s yellow pages as well as a radio campaign yesterday, and I"ll be signing a contract on a billboard on the main street where the corporate offices are. But I can"t expand too wide geographically, because as you"ve seen from the clips I posted, some guys think they can do the jobs themselves. There are too many employees that try to poach jobs for themselves. Maybe they know a friend or family member that has equipment, so then they poach the bigger jobs. My goal is to get to one million in sales, because of the economics of doing so, my net would be 500k. We"ve done just under that, if there is a lot of storm activity in that year (880k, a lot of it was from emergency jobs that pay very well), but I want to be able to do a million a year every year. We just make a lot more money at 800-900k than we do at 500-600k, since most of my costs are fixed. It"s what they taught in microeconomics, with high overhead, once I get past that, it gets a lot more profitable. Our variable costs are very low in comparison.

That is my long-term goal, get to where one million is the floor, and then expand product lines. It seems as if the market here is going to where the bigger companies are getting the bulk of the business, and the smaller companies are getting the scraps. So it"s grow bigger or die.

If anyone is interested, I can post the incremental analysis I did on this.
 

Shonuff

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Here is something I was working on the other day. It is our average month (with just crew 1). It"s not a bad one, it"s not one where we get a bunch of emergency work and we can charge whatever we want. What has happened is that we run two crews for a little, and then lay off two guys and merge the left over guy with crew one. I want to run two crews all year next year.

In terms of discretionary income, business brokers determine it to be the net cash flow of the company + debt payments + payments to owner + misc payments. So in this month, the discretionary income is 12 + 7 + 4 + 1= 24k. That"s usually what we do from crew #1.

When we have two crews, its like the first crew covers all the bills of the company, and the second crew is pure profit. No, don"t take me literally on that, but it sure is a hell of a lot profitable. I"ve made 40k net (before discretionary income addbacks) on 80k in sales. And when we"ve done 150k in a month in emergency work, I"ve made 70k before discretionary addbacks.

My goal this year is to do enough advertising to be able to keep the second crew out all year. How am I going to do that? Like I said, we have an adjacent city of 150k that we"ve ignored. I"m going to spend 20k in advertising in that city next year. I"m also continuing to target high net worth individuals, which is why we just bid a 10k and 20k job this week. We want the Doctors, Lawyers and Businesspeople that will sign up for 5-10k in work a year. These are the people that have huge projects and acreage, and they can"t do it themselves. Just 100 of these people at 5k a pop would get us to our goal. We just joined a country club where there are 500 members that are this target demo, and we are networking as well as looking at doing sponsorships. And there are thousands of them in this area. We don"t mind normal customers, it"s just easier to go with rich people because while they might be particular, they always pay. Our default rate of someone with a 300k+ house is 0%. They are too concerned about their credit.

I"ve heard that most small businesses never get to one million in sales (like 5%). It"s even harder for us that we are a service business. But my goal is to get there, and its why I"ve increased our sales dollars tenfold, and we are in every medium but TV. I may start up TV next Spring. I did an analysis on it, and for every dollar in advertising I"m spending, I"m getting sixfold that in sales. It could be better, I"m constantly working on my people"s salesmanship.

We"ve done 800-900k in a year where there is a lot of emergency work, but we haven"t had emergencies in three years. We"ve made the profitability I"ve shown in those years. When we get there consistently, we won"t need a bank for anything, we"ll (as in my family) will be our own bank. Screw a loan.

It"s frustrating because we"ll do two crews for a few months, and then have to layoff. I don"t like doing that, and advertising has helped smooth things out. I don"t want to just keep six people employed all year, and cut the other guys. But I don"t have a choice. We are backlogged a month, and losing 2k a week in cancellations because people got impatient. In the Summer, we were losing 5-6k some weeks because people wouldn"t wait. One day I"ll figure out how to smooth supply and demand. No one in my industry has so far. I"ve been able to make the low months increase by 100% in revenue, and we"ve worked now 18 months in a row every day. Most of of competitors have only backlog for the day. They wake up every morning with no work. No thanks.
 

Corndog

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Property that was too good to be true was too good to be true. The tenant next door was named "DankTank" a glass shop... Also the place was run down bad. parking was straight up un useable. So much so that when the realtor parked the neighboring tenant came in and said a customer of his called and said he couldn"t get in to park... There were only 2 cars parked infront.

On a better note I found a place much closer to home in the bigger city that is $1300 for $1500 sqft on the same big road. That includes NNN or CAM fees. Everything except the electricity I use. I was able to view it inside and it was a nice layout for me with an extra sink which is just a bonus. Waiting to hear back from the realtor again so I can discuss lease terms etc.
 

Izuldan_foh

shitlord
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Blazin - are you a contractor by yourself, or do you have your own company/firm? I was trying to see ways you might save yourself on taxes. Of course, as already mentioned, paying everything off is noble but doesn"t make the most sense tax-wise.

Corndog - Good luck with everything. I can"t believe you can get a good space for less than $1/ sq. ft. lol.

Lyrical - that"s impressive that you can get almost 50% net return on your revenue. Is that typical for the construction business? I personally get about 35%, but that"s only slightly below average for my industry at my level.
 

Corndog

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I"ve been location scouting for nearly 4 months now. Memorizing locations, watching whats opening, what"s been sitting open etc. This place I"ve been watching has a for lease sign in the window, but a giant banner on top of the space for the business that used to be there. SO most think it"s not available.

Need my builder and a petco location scouter friend to come take a look at it. But I can get a 2 year lease with option to renew at 2 years. I can get 2 months free if I sign it for 26 months. This came up because I was asking for a month free per year of signing.

I"ve got another walkthrough a different property a week from today. But it that property is 1500 sqft at $1800. On the same street, but 3 miles south. So a $500 savings moving down 3 miles. Parking seems equal, space layout appears the same.
 

Eomer

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Izuldan said:
Lyrical - that"s impressive that you can get almost 50% net return on your revenue. Is that typical for the construction business? I personally get about 35%, but that"s only slightly below average for my industry at my level.
The smaller the business/contractor, the higher the margins. Large general contractors might make 3-5% on their revenues, large subtrades like mechanical/electrical/drywall might have a 10-20% gross margin before overhead, and so on down the line.
 

Shonuff

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Izuldan said:
Lyrical - that"s impressive that you can get almost 50% net return on your revenue. Is that typical for the construction business? I personally get about 35%, but that"s only slightly below average for my industry at my level.
I posted more of what we do on page one, at the end of the first post. We are adjacent to the construction and landscaping industries, as subcontractors. Coincidentally, we just ate at the country club and met a landscaper who need our services, he"s not specialized enough to do it.

It is kind of Micro Econ 101. Companies that have high fixed costs and low variable ones ratchet up as revenues get higher in a certain range. The cost behavior is such that just 20 percent more revenues can be a huge jump in profits.

It"s why lose money at 35k in revenues, do OK at 45, and make a lot at 150. 75k in profits in one month is a lot. The most I ever made at an employer in a year was 90k before bonus. I"ve made that in a month.

This thread is crystallizing somethings for me. I need to spend more in advertising, so I don"t get stung at 35k, and I want to be double that bare minimum. It is so much easier to handle bills and keep guys working. At that range. I don"t want to go back to waking up in the morning wondering how I"m going to get some hours for the guys. Thankfully, it"s been 18 months since we"ve had a slow time in our offseason.
 

Shonuff

Mr. Poopybutthole
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Eomer said:
The smaller the business/contractor, the higher the margins. Large general contractors might make 3-5% on their revenues, large subtrades like mechanical/electrical/drywall might have a 10-20% gross margin before overhead, and so on down the line.
In our niche, we are the largest in the area. We make more only because we are in the service industry, and after 45k in sales, the only costs are labor and gas.