Affluenza

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Cad

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Apparently sex crimes were a politically charged issue for the military at the time and he was told to present the best case he had regardless of his personal beliefs. So he did his job. Perhaps too well.
As long as he disclosed and the defense used whatever evidence he personally felt meant the guy didn't do it, then I think he's in the clear ethically. My personal belief on something isn't really relevant as long as I'm not basing my belief on evidence that the finder of fact won't have.
 

Haast

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As long as he disclosed and the defense used whatever evidence he personally felt meant the guy didn't do it, then I think he's in the clear ethically. My personal belief on something isn't really relevant as long as I'm not basing my belief on evidence that the finder of fact won't have.
We didn't dive into the details, but from what I gather it was the old "he said, she said" and my friend wasn't very convinced by what "she said". But apparently the judge was.
 

Cad

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We didn't dive into the details, but from what I gather it was the old "he said, she said" and my friend wasn't very convinced by what "she said". But apparently the judge was.
That doesn't really matter then, honestly.
 

Haast

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That doesn't really matter then, honestly.
I bet it matters to the guy that got hit with a tribunal rape conviction for something he probably didn't do (lol dindu). But yeah, my friend probably got an "atta boy" since the military wanted to look tough on sex crimes.
 

Cad

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I bet it matters to the guy that got hit with a tribunal rape conviction for something he probably didn't do (lol dindu). But yeah, my friend probably got an "atta boy" since the military wanted to look tough on sex crimes.
You definitely get into a weird area there. Because if the guy in question has discretion, and doesn't believe his own case, he should in good conscience drop it. But it sounds like his boss told him to take the case to trial regardless, and the judge believed her. My question would be, did anything happen outside of court or did he have a conversation with her that made him not believe her? If so, did he disclose it to the court/defense? There's no attorney/client privilege between a prosecutor and victim.

I know you probably don't know but it'd be interesting to find out.
 

Khane

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I mean, thats not even correct lawyering. Prosecutors don't represent the victims. They represent the state, or more correctly the interests of the state. The state has no interest in convicting people who aren't guilty. And the model rules of ethics have special ones for criminal prosecutors:

Rule 3.8: Special Responsibilities of a Prosecutor | The Center for Professional Responsibility
Yes the interests of the state. Which may or may not coincide with the interests of its citizens. I'm not gonna get all conspiracy theory here but let's not pretend that terrible shit doesn't happen because of political pressure.

I'm not really sure why you're taking the stance it's understandable to give this kid probation when we have a ton of jailed inmates serving time for non violent drug related crimes. This kid killed 4 people.
 

Cad

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Yes the interests of the state. Which may or may not coincide with the interests of its citizens. I'm not gonna get all conspiracy theory here but let's not pretend that terrible shit doesn't happen because of political pressure.

I'm not really sure why you're taking the stance it's understandable to give this kid probation when we have a ton of jailed inmates serving time for non violent drug related crimes. This kid killed 4 people.
I didn't say it's understandable I said it's not exceptional. Happens every day. Ya'll are acting like the only reason he got probation is the affluenza crap, but it's not. I have been sitting in court and watched someone get convicted of murder and get probation.

120 Texas killers got probation, study finds - Houston Chronicle

I think the TX legislature passed a mandatory prison sentence law for murder a few years ago because too many of these were making the news. Combine this with the kid being underage, his parents being willing to send him to a great rehab center... and you have the "possibility" of a turn around. Thats what the judge/jury look for when sentencing. If I was sentencing him? I'd probably have given him a few years in the clink followed by 20 years probation and a permanent revocation of his drivers license. But you guys with your rich people hate act like this kid got special treatment when hedid not.
 

Khane

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You're glossing over the fact that his defense used "affluenza" to get him out of jail time successfully. So he really DID get special treatment and, in fact, it was because of his wealth.

Bro let's not pretend money doesn't buy special treatment. We both know it does.

I don't hear about many kids from the ghetto getting a second chance because of their upbringing.
 

Cad

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You're glossing over the fact that his defense used "affluenza" to get him out of jail time successfully. So he really DID get special treatment and, in fact, it was because of his wealth.

Bro let's not pretend money doesn't buy special treatment. We both know it does.

I don't hear about many kids from the ghetto getting a second chance because of their upbringing.
You don't hear about it because the news doesn't report on it because there's no rich-boy schadenfreude to report on. I worked on behalf of indigent criminal defendants all throughout law school. As long as they aren't gang bangers the juries are just LOOKING for reasons to give poor kids who never had a chance, a second chance. You should go to the courthouse one day and just sit in on some shit and see what goes down. Seriously.

You ever been to a sentencing hearing? You have any idea the kind of bullshit they trot out to try to sway the judge/jury?
 

Debase

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Why is this guy so bad to you guys? I mean obviously he should and probably will go to prison now. But do you think this is the first guy who got probation for his first offense and didn't clean up his life? Is the schadenfreude that bad because he comes from a wealthy family?
My guess is that people are mad that he got offbecausehe was wealthy, not simply some resentment of him having wealth. We all know that the criminal justice system is flawed, but nothing like a clear case of bias to get people into a frenzy. To me, its kind of sad that one kid getting off too easy is enough to create a national spectacle, but the hundreds that get buried because they're poor every day is only a human interest piece once every couple of years.
 

Khane

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You ever been to a sentencing hearing? You have any idea the kind of bullshit they trot out to try to sway the judge/jury?
Not arguing that at all. Just saying you seem to be apathetic just because you see stupid shit happen often. Person A getting away with something because of some ridiculous defense doesn't excuse the fact that Person B is getting away with a different crime because of an equally ridiculous offense.

The kid did get special treatment. It was because of his wealth. The fact of the matter is it's part of the judge's and jury's discretion and when humans are involved and given discretion special treatment will always exist.

This particular case is kind of a doozy because the defense was "He doesn't know any better because his wealth has afforded him a life free of consequence" and then his sentencing reinforced that ideal to the extreme.
 

Cad

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This particular case is kind of a doozy because the defense was "He doesn't know any better because his wealth has afforded him a life free of consequence" and then his sentencing reinforced that ideal to the extreme.
Maybe I'm jaded but my reaction is so what. Humans gonna human. I don't have enough outrage left in me to think that is an absurd result anymore. The only other thing you can do is take wealth into account when sentencing and say "well this kid was from a wealthy family, and he fucked up despite his opportunities. I say we put him under the jail to balance out his life." Which is equally unfair. Anytime you have a person of some privilege (fuck you for making me type that) and he gets any kind of leniency people are going to be up in arms about it assuming it's because of his privilege. It's just tired.
 

Quineloe

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So, you say some cryptic shit that I don't even understand what you mean, I ask you to clarify, and that means I have no moral compass? Well, ok then. Fuck you too.
I know you don't like me, so expect me to lash out when you give me one of those passive aggressive asshole 1-liners in response.

You first claimed that probation was "normal" for his case, and then it turns out it's just 30% for all DUI killings. So how often do people who kill FOUR while drunk (drunk from stolen alcohol nonetheless) get probation? I reckon his is one of the worse cases, I think the 30% who do get probation for a DUI killing are less crass in comparison.
 

Rezz

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After having thought about it for a bit, I think the fact that the defense lawyers used his relative wealth as a reason is more important than how the judge looked at the case. Once they mentioned his inability to handle his own social standing, it became about how that social standing was interpreted and not about the crime itself. Lots of poor people probably get probation on a daily basis for similar or greater crimes, but their defense did not explicitly state that they were too wealthy/poor to understand their actions. Pretty sure that's the communal sticking point on the issue. It isn't that the kid is/was well off. It's that his defense brought up the fact and won the initial case (for all intents and purposes) that I think raises the ire of most people. He clearly received different treatment, and it would largely be due to how his original case was presented. I'd say the actual fault is with the defense lawyer, and that most angst should be directed to them. Had they not tried the "too rich to care" defense, this wouldn't be national news at all.
 

Cad

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I know you don't like me, so expect me to lash out when you give me one of those passive aggressive asshole 1-liners in response.

You first claimed that probation was "normal" for his case, and then it turns out it's just 30% for all DUI killings. So how often do people who kill FOUR while drunk (drunk from stolen alcohol nonetheless) get probation? I reckon his is one of the worse cases, I think the 30% who do get probation for a DUI killing are less crass in comparison.
I didn't say it was normal. I said it was not abnormal.
 

Khane

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Maybe I'm jaded but my reaction is so what. Humans gonna human. I don't have enough outrage left in me to think that is an absurd result anymore. The only other thing you can do is take wealth into account when sentencing and say "well this kid was from a wealthy family, and he fucked up despite his opportunities. I say we put him under the jail to balance out his life." Which is equally unfair. Anytime you have a person of some privilege (fuck you for making me type that) and he gets any kind of leniency people are going to be up in arms about it assuming it's because of his privilege. It's just tired.
I'm not outraged either. There is a difference between outrage and just saying "This is absurd. And it's fairly obvious his wealth was at play". That was the defense after all. The assumption it's because of his social standing might seem tired to you because you see it often but that doesn't really excuse the decision made. Wealthy people get treated differently. Attractive people get treated differently. It's true, that's life. Just because it's commonplace doesn't make it OK in a case where 4 people lost their lives.

Again. You're apathetic and I can understand that given your profession, but that's all it is. Apathy.
 

Furry

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The problem with people who point out the other miscarriages of justice and say "See, this kid didn't get special treatment" is strange to me. Why aren't we allowed to be pissed off about this, when we are pissed off about the other examples you give too? It's shit, and your shit by trying to say these problems somehow justify this one. Their both problems morons.
 

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I think that you guys are not looking into the facts that matter on this, such as what is the history of sentencing with the judge, who btw retired after her term expired. What is outrageous in this case is not the sentence, but the defense.
 

Furry

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I think that you guys are not looking into the facts that matter on this, such as what is the history of sentencing with the judge, who btw retired after her term expired. What is outrageous in this case is not the sentence, but the defense.
The defense failed just as spectacularly as you would expect it. It only would be outrageous in my eyes if that shit had worked. The judge is the reason this little shit isn't in jail, not the jury.