Ancient Civilizations
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Chris
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Oldest fortress in the world discovered by archaeologists
A fortified structure in a remote region of Siberia has been dated to around 8,000 years ago, challenging our understanding of early human societies.www.newsweek.com
And remember this is Western Siberia. Not the comparatively densely populated European continent (even in pre-history). So, what societies were in Siberia exactly that required the construction of complex defensive fortifications? You don't build that shit to deter wandering reindeer and bears.
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Are you just trying to be contrarian for no reason here? Every society that ever developed developed along similar lines.
Nomadic cultures in both recorded history and pre-history followed around their primary source of food. Because they were dependent on whatever animal they had to follow it around. Similarly, every society that was able to stay in one place and create a caloric surplus through more efficient methods of food production eventually cultivated additional skills. Skills that a nomadic culture simply didn't have the time for nor interest in.
So, rather than follow the logical argument that humanity had some degree of civilization that included agriculture and other hallmarks of building a civilization and having specialized skills of stonemasonry, construction, and blah blah on a timeline different than the one we suspect.
But no, nomadic hunter gatherers who literally just foraged for food figured all this out in their ample spare time. I guess.
Talos
Silver Baronet of the Realm
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Is it possible this west Siberian fortification is a religious pilgrimage site rather than simply a defensive fortification, like gobekli tepe?
This thing could have been built as a place to travel and commune with their god by offering up their food (this would explain the frequent fires if they were hunters and fishers). They could still maintain their nomadic lifestyle of following animals around, with occasional pilgrimages to this place to offer up a part of an extraordinarily successful hunt. The preservation containers make sense if they were going on pilgrimages from a hunt site to this structure.
This thing could have been built as a place to travel and commune with their god by offering up their food (this would explain the frequent fires if they were hunters and fishers). They could still maintain their nomadic lifestyle of following animals around, with occasional pilgrimages to this place to offer up a part of an extraordinarily successful hunt. The preservation containers make sense if they were going on pilgrimages from a hunt site to this structure.
Chukzombi
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Talos
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The article says it was a fortified settlement. So it was some sort of settlement that was important enough for them to want to protect with fortifications.
For ancient people, there was no sharp divide between religion and other parts of life. Like gobekli tepe, the pilgrimage site comes first and more complex structures develop later to support the sacrifices occuring there. Is it unreasonable to believe this similarly could have been an important religious site for these people?
TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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Something for
Chris
to attempt to digest. But also an interesting listen. This is a contemporary example from the 20th century. Where in the 1930s researchers discovered the Clovis culture down in New Mexico. This was material evidence that people had lived in the Americas ~12500 years ago. This proof became the basis for the entire migration theory that people walked down from the Bering land bridge in the ice age and gradually filled up the Americas, moving down into Central and South America. The one that you and I heard on brief documentaries and such of the topic throughout our lives.
However, after 40 years of the Clovis culture guiding all research another researcher in 1978 out in the Yukon found material evidence that people were in the Americas ~24k years ago. The result of this discovery was that he was blackballed and had all his funding pulled because he put into jeopardy the previous 40+ years of research and every assumption ever made by anthropologists in that time. This is not a united illuminati conspiracy theory or anything, it was merely powerful bias within a relatively small subsection of academia that was extremely resistant to changes. These scientists could not accept that the primary basis and assumptions they worked with their entire lives were wrong. Thus all of their research and work was also invalid and wrong.
In the 90s it was confirmed that the Yukon discovery at Bluefish caves was 100% accurate and the Clovis First theory was thoroughly false. None the less even today the Clovis First test is pushed on everything as the people involved in such things still lived mostly in a time when it was the dominant theory. Which is much like what we are seeing now. Geologists and climatologist research also made the idea that migration across the Bering Land bridge was extremely unlikely as the main assumption of anthropologists was that an ice free corridor from Alaska down into North America existed for them to migrate along. But this did not exist. As Ice Age Canada was under hundreds of feet of ice for millennia.
Chris
to attempt to digest. But also an interesting listen. This is a contemporary example from the 20th century. Where in the 1930s researchers discovered the Clovis culture down in New Mexico. This was material evidence that people had lived in the Americas ~12500 years ago. This proof became the basis for the entire migration theory that people walked down from the Bering land bridge in the ice age and gradually filled up the Americas, moving down into Central and South America. The one that you and I heard on brief documentaries and such of the topic throughout our lives.However, after 40 years of the Clovis culture guiding all research another researcher in 1978 out in the Yukon found material evidence that people were in the Americas ~24k years ago. The result of this discovery was that he was blackballed and had all his funding pulled because he put into jeopardy the previous 40+ years of research and every assumption ever made by anthropologists in that time. This is not a united illuminati conspiracy theory or anything, it was merely powerful bias within a relatively small subsection of academia that was extremely resistant to changes. These scientists could not accept that the primary basis and assumptions they worked with their entire lives were wrong. Thus all of their research and work was also invalid and wrong.
In the 90s it was confirmed that the Yukon discovery at Bluefish caves was 100% accurate and the Clovis First theory was thoroughly false. None the less even today the Clovis First test is pushed on everything as the people involved in such things still lived mostly in a time when it was the dominant theory. Which is much like what we are seeing now. Geologists and climatologist research also made the idea that migration across the Bering Land bridge was extremely unlikely as the main assumption of anthropologists was that an ice free corridor from Alaska down into North America existed for them to migrate along. But this did not exist. As Ice Age Canada was under hundreds of feet of ice for millennia.
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Chris
Potato del Grande
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Yeah sounds reasonable.Something for
However, after 40 years of the Clovis culture guiding all research another researcher in 1978 out in the Yukon found material evidence that people were in the Americas ~24k years ago. The result of this discovery was that he was blackballed and had all his funding pulled because he put into jeopardy the previous 40+ years of research and every assumption ever made by anthropologists in that time.
In the 90s it was confirmed that the Yukon discovery at Bluefish caves was 100% accurate and the Clovis First theory was throughly false. None the less even today the Clovis First test is pushed on everything as the people involved in such things still lived mostly in a time when it was the dominant theory. Which is much like what we are seeing now. Geologists and climatologist research also made the idea that migration across the Bering Land bridge was extremely unlikely as the main assumption of anthropologists was that an ice free corridor from Alaska down into North America existed for them to migrate along. But this did not exist. As Ice Age Canada was under hundreds of feet of ice for millennia.
Doesn't mean they will dig in a new cave and find a global seafaring pyramid building civilisation with sonic power tools powered by leyline energy. And I'm not being a dick here, people do claim just that.
They may find limited one way ocean crossings. They may find some crazy technique for lifting/cutting rock with low technology. They may find new modes of civilisation outside of the hunter/gatherer to farmer paradigm.
TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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How many fucking times does it have to be said in this thread that aliens and shit is not what we are talking about?
What you are doing is taking the "experts" as 100% correct and all you do is defend it for some reason. Even when numerous examples already exist of the experts being totally wrong and it taking almost a century to overcome it. It is demonstrating the principle here that observations by outside sources have merit rather than handwaving them away in favor of supposedly proven shit by academics is somehow better.
What you are doing is taking the "experts" as 100% correct and all you do is defend it for some reason. Even when numerous examples already exist of the experts being totally wrong and it taking almost a century to overcome it. It is demonstrating the principle here that observations by outside sources have merit rather than handwaving them away in favor of supposedly proven shit by academics is somehow better.
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Chukzombi
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He doesn't care. He's just trolling because he thinks you're trolling. Pre Clovis theory is thought to be some white supremacy stuff. The solutrians come from France. Can't have a euro based indigenous people in America before browns. Thor huyerdahl pushed this and got smeared. Pre Clovis spears and race will come out, but not for many decades.
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Cutlery
Kill All the White People
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Something for
However, after 40 years of the Clovis culture guiding all research another researcher in 1978 out in the Yukon found material evidence that people were in the Americas ~24k years ago. The result of this discovery was that he was blackballed and had all his funding pulled because he put into jeopardy the previous 40+ years of research and every assumption ever made by anthropologists in that time. This is not a united illuminati conspiracy theory or anything, it was merely powerful bias within a relatively small subsection of academia that was extremely resistant to changes. These scientists could not accept that the primary basis and assumptions they worked with their entire lives were wrong. Thus all of their research and work was also invalid and wrong.
In the 90s it was confirmed that the Yukon discovery at Bluefish caves was 100% accurate and the Clovis First theory was thoroughly false. None the less even today the Clovis First test is pushed on everything as the people involved in such things still lived mostly in a time when it was the dominant theory. Which is much like what we are seeing now. Geologists and climatologist research also made the idea that migration across the Bering Land bridge was extremely unlikely as the main assumption of anthropologists was that an ice free corridor from Alaska down into North America existed for them to migrate along. But this did not exist. As Ice Age Canada was under hundreds of feet of ice for millennia.
Youd think that after the vaccine debacle the last few years, people would understand this a lot easier now. The "scientific" community is anything but these days. There is little to no actual science being done, no one is allowed to challenge any assumptions or narratives. Maybe it's always been that way. But one thing is certain - money rules everything nowadays. We're past the point of being able to make discoveries in your basement by boiling liquids and sealing bottles to prove spontaneous generation is bullshit. You need access to a lot of sites and equipment to make meaningful observations, and all of that requires money and connections. Things you don't get when you start asking silly shit like "is there another explanation for this that you've simply overlooked?"
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TJT
Mr. Poopybutthole
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I think it's always been that way. In the 19th century a sawmill operator who loved the great outdoors put forward the idea that glaciation is what shaped the valleys and peaks of North America. He came to this conclusion by wandering around Yosemite and observing things. He was called an ignorant uneducated retard by the Ivy League experts of his time. He was later proven 100% correct.
That guy's name was John Muir.
'Unknown nobody' outfoxed the expert, solved a riddle - Science Musings
Yosemite Valley was once thought to have been created by a cataclysmic earthquake, until 'unknown nobody' John Muir offered a new explanation.
www.sciencemusings.com
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