Andor

TJT · Dec 4, 2022

Finished this.

Thought it was great but I think the prison detour really detracted from it. The Empire killing Andor's adopted father over nothing was more than sufficient to redpill him as a rabid anti-imperialist. A random stint in prison didn't really need to happen to redpill him even more. Dude was already robbing the Empire every chance he got and had already participated in the heist I think they could have used something better. Yes that the Empire was working prisoners to death is bad and did show another angle to how terrible it was it didn't necessarily further Andor's motivations.

I mean it wasn't awful but they could have come up with a better subplot. It's the only thing that detracts from the overall story IMO.

mkopec · Dec 4, 2022

TJT said:
Finished this.

Thought it was great but I think the prison detour really detracted from it. The Empire killing Andor's adopted father over nothing was more than sufficient to redpill him as a rabid anti-imperialist. A random stint in prison didn't really need to happen to redpill him even more. Dude was already robbing the Empire every chance he got and had already participated in the heist I think they could have used something better. Yes that the Empire was working prisoners to death is bad and did show another angle to how terrible it was it didn't necessarily further Andor's motivations.

I mean it wasn't awful but they could have come up with a better subplot. It's the only thing that detracts from the overall story IMO.

Yeah I thougth the same thing, not only that they spent a full 2 episodes on that shit too. Full 17% of the season.

TJT · Dec 4, 2022

Should have focused more on Luthen. He's a really interesting character with a lot of development. I like the idea of a somewhat regular dude kickstarting the rebellion through his own doings. Having to do shit worse than even the Empire does on a regular basis in order to secure the resources needed for the Rebellion to truly take shape and have a fighting chance. All the while knowing you will never see the fruits of your labor and you will hate yourself for all the horrible shit you had to do.

All the makings of a truly tragic hero. Should have spent time on him instead of prison.

Oldbased · Dec 4, 2022

I don't think the prison part was for Andor as much as it was just to show something cool and different from other prison scenes.
The deaths and shit also just shows how bad the Empire can be.

phisey · Dec 4, 2022

Gilroy was cagey about whether we'd see Kino Loy again so there's a nontrivial chance he comes back in another episode.

I like the theory that the parallels between the prison and the kamino cloning facilities are more than coincidence. Both were antiseptic white water-world facilities and the prison has virtually none of the empire's usual design language. They either removed the hints that these were how the clones were decommissioned or we'll see clearer evidence of it later.

velk · Dec 5, 2022

Eh, economics of prisoners aside, I have a hard time believing the lifetime output of slave prisoners would exceed the amount of effort that went into *building* that prison in the first place, regardless of whether you used prisoners or droids to build it with.

Then again, Star Wars economics have never made the slightest bit of sense - the expense of the materials alone make the first death star absolutely ridiculous, let alone the idea it was built in secret. The Rule of Cool has always been the Empire's finance minister.

phisey · Dec 5, 2022

velk said:
Eh, economics of prisoners aside, I have a hard time believing the lifetime output of slave prisoners would exceed the amount of effort that went into *building* that prison in the first place, regardless of whether you used prisoners or droids to build it with.

Then again, Star Wars economics have never made the slightest bit of sense - the expense of the materials alone make the first death star absolutely ridiculous, let alone the idea it was built in secret. The Rule of Cool has always been the Empire's finance minister.

They sort of wrote around that with those fisher-aliens who complained about the Empire mass-exploiting the planet and killing all the fish. So the prison was just a small part of a larger mass-harvesting operation on the planet. That's a theme that the show started with on the planet Andor grew up on as a feral child, they were strip mining that planet.

Mist · Dec 5, 2022

Luthen is almost certainly the best example of a true fallen Jedi we've seen. That has to be what they meant by all of this, right?

Burns · Dec 6, 2022

Mist said:
Luthen is almost certainly the best example of a true fallen Jedi we've seen. That has to be what they meant by all of this, right?

There should be a record of what every Jedi adult looked like? The Emperor, Vader, and the inquisition should have those records. Luthen is in the upper city, which means he not only deals with the rich and famous, but is part of their circle. So I don't think he could go unnoticed, if he used to be in the Jedi order.

The other Jedi, post Order 66, are all hiding their faces on backwater worlds. Kanan Jaro was only a young Padawan during the fall of the republic, yet was still afraid to show his face too prominently.

Jive Turkey · Dec 6, 2022

We better not see any jedi magic in season 2

Ossoi · Dec 6, 2022

There are several arguments that can be made in favor of robot labor being more efficient than human labor.

First, robots are capable of working consistently for long periods of time without getting tired or needing breaks. This allows them to complete tasks more quickly and efficiently than human workers, who may need to take breaks or rest to avoid fatigue.

Second, robots are able to work in environments that may be unsafe or uncomfortable for human workers. For example, they can be used in hazardous manufacturing environments or in extreme temperatures without risking the health and safety of human workers.

Third, robots are able to perform tasks with a high degree of precision and accuracy. They are not prone to mistakes or errors that may be made by human workers, which can save time and money by reducing the need for quality control measures.

In conclusion, robot labor is more efficient than human labor because it is capable of working consistently without fatigue, can work in hazardous environments, and can perform tasks with a high degree of precision and accuracy.

Burns · Dec 6, 2022

Ossoi said:
There are several arguments that can be made in favor of robot labor being more efficient than human labor.

First, robots are capable of working consistently for long periods of time without getting tired or needing breaks. This allows them to complete tasks more quickly and efficiently than human workers, who may need to take breaks or rest to avoid fatigue.

Second, robots are able to work in environments that may be unsafe or uncomfortable for human workers. For example, they can be used in hazardous manufacturing environments or in extreme temperatures without risking the health and safety of human workers.

Third, robots are able to perform tasks with a high degree of precision and accuracy. They are not prone to mistakes or errors that may be made by human workers, which can save time and money by reducing the need for quality control measures.

In conclusion, robot labor is more efficient than human labor because it is capable of working consistently without fatigue, can work in hazardous environments, and can perform tasks with a high degree of precision and accuracy.

It doesn't matter if robots are better, cheaper, or whatever.

A galactic empire is going to have a lot of "criminals" to incarcerate and autocratic governments have a very high amount of political prisoners. Executing all criminals leads to more unrest than putting them in work camps or "reeducation" camps.

I got the impression that the prisoners were only recently turned into full on slaves (once that law got passed after the payroll heist). That is why they were light on guards, and made the mistake of transferring a "released" prisoner back to that prison.

Burns · Dec 6, 2022

TJT said:
Finished this.

Thought it was great but I think the prison detour really detracted from it. The Empire killing Andor's adopted father over nothing was more than sufficient to redpill him as a rabid anti-imperialist. A random stint in prison didn't really need to happen to redpill him even more. Dude was already robbing the Empire every chance he got and had already participated in the heist I think they could have used something better. Yes that the Empire was working prisoners to death is bad and did show another angle to how terrible it was it didn't necessarily further Andor's motivations.

I mean it wasn't awful but they could have come up with a better subplot. It's the only thing that detracts from the overall story IMO.

His childhood was enough to make him hate the Empire, as they were responsible for killing his whole planet. That childhood also built his character to be a take care of yourself and your family first, because no one else will. He was also under the impression that he could run and hide from the empire, with enough money, which suited his personality type.

His father getting killed may have increased the hate, but he still had his mother to take care of. If he could only get enough money, they could go far away, to some beach, where the Empire only had a light presence, and they could be happy. Even with his mother's insistence that she was staying, he still thought he could convince her to move, eventually.

The prison, or something similar, was needed to convert the run and hide mentality into a stand and fight mentality; as his best effort to get away from it all ended up with him in prison on false charges.

phisey · Dec 6, 2022

I don't know that we need Luthen to be Jedi per se, particularly since Gilroy has already used characters who were force "believers" that were associated with the Jedi but weren't actually Jedi in Rogue One.

He could just be another Whills like the monks in Rogue One or someone who worked in the Jedi Temple on Coruscant.

mkopec · Dec 6, 2022

Burns said:
It doesn't matter if robots are better, cheaper, or whatever.

A galactic empire is going to have a lot of "criminals" to incarcerate and autocratic governments have a very high amount of political prisoners. Executing all criminals leads to more unrest than putting them in work camps or "reeducation" camps.

I got the impression that the prisoners were only recently turned into full on slaves (once that law got passed after the payroll heist). That is why they were light on guards, and made the mistake of transferring a "released" prisoner back to that prison.

IT be fine if those slaves did actual "slave" labor like in a mine or breaking rocks or somthing. But doing technical installs like they were doing is an entirely different matter. Most people are fucking dumb asses. I would not trust any of those parts made by prisoners. (theoretical discussion I know this is a fictional show).

Ossoi · Dec 6, 2022

Burns said:
It doesn't matter if robots are better, cheaper, or whatever.

A galactic empire is going to have a lot of "criminals" to incarcerate and autocratic governments have a very high amount of political prisoners. Executing all criminals leads to more unrest than putting them in work camps or "reeducation" camps.

I got the impression that the prisoners were only recently turned into full on slaves (once that law got passed after the payroll heist). That is why they were light on guards, and made the mistake of transferring a "released" prisoner back to that prison.

In general, however, the use of robot labor can be more efficient than using convicted criminals as prison labor for several reasons.

First, robots can work 24/7 without needing breaks, whereas prisoners are limited by labor laws and other regulations. This means that robots can potentially produce more goods or services in a given amount of time than prisoners.

Second, robots can be designed to do specific tasks quickly and accurately, whereas prisoners may not have the necessary skills or training to do certain jobs. This can lead to higher quality products or services when using robots.

Third, using robots for labor can also reduce the costs associated with employing prisoners, such as housing and feeding them. Additionally, there may be fewer legal and ethical issues associated with using robots for labor compared to using prisoners.

Overall, the decision of whether to use robot labor or prisoners as labor will depend on a variety of factors, including the specific tasks that need to be performed, the technology available, and the costs and benefits of each option.

Harshaw · Dec 6, 2022

Living labor is cheap and expendable. The Empire is chewing through planets worth of resources to make the Death Star. They are also trying to complete it as fast as possible. Making specified robots for those tasks takes time and resources. It's not like they have the certain robots they need available on demand.

Burns · Dec 6, 2022

mkopec said:
IT be fine if those slaves did actual "slave" labor like in a mine or breaking rocks or somthing. But doing technical installs like they were doing is an entirely different matter. Most people are fucking dumb asses. I would not trust any of those parts made by prisoners. (theoretical discussion I know this is a fictional show).

It looked to be mostly mechanical assembly, where it all has to fit together a certain way or it wont fit together. They don't need to be particularly smart to put part 1 here and part 2 there. Getting shocked for bad performance can probably stimulate proper learning for such assembly rather quickly.

Even if they have a high failure rate, they can just make more. It would only become a problem if they were constantly waiting on those parts to move on other Deathstar construction, which may or may not be the case.

Ossoi · Dec 6, 2022

Darth Sidious, also known as Emperor Palpatine, was a Sith Lord who controlled the Galactic Empire. As the Empire's supreme leader, he had access to a vast array of military resources, including a massive army of droids.

These droids were used for a variety of purposes, including combat, labor, and even assassination. Some of the most famous examples of the Empire's droid army include the Imperial Probe Droids, which were used to scout out potential targets, and the Imperial Stormtroopers, who were the Empire's elite soldiers.

While these droids were incredibly effective as soldiers, they could easily have been repurposed for labor. Given the advanced technology used to create these droids, they were capable of performing a wide range of tasks with precision and efficiency.

For example, the Imperial Probe Droids could have been used for mining, surveying, and exploration. The Imperial Stormtroopers, with their advanced combat training, could have been used for construction and security.

In short, Darth Sidious had access to a vast army of droids that could easily have been converted to serve as labor for the Empire. While they were primarily used for combat and other military purposes, their advanced technology and capabilities made them an invaluable asset for a wide range of tasks.

Burns · Dec 6, 2022

Ossoi said:
In general, however, the use of robot labor can be more efficient than using convicted criminals as prison labor for several reasons.

First, robots can work 24/7 without needing breaks, whereas prisoners are limited by labor laws and other regulations. This means that robots can potentially produce more goods or services in a given amount of time than prisoners.

Second, robots can be designed to do specific tasks quickly and accurately, whereas prisoners may not have the necessary skills or training to do certain jobs. This can lead to higher quality products or services when using robots.

Third, using robots for labor can also reduce the costs associated with employing prisoners, such as housing and feeding them. Additionally, there may be fewer legal and ethical issues associated with using robots for labor compared to using prisoners.

Overall, the decision of whether to use robot labor or prisoners as labor will depend on a variety of factors, including the specific tasks that need to be performed, the technology available, and the costs and benefits of each option.

If they actually thought about how this all works out in the writing room:

Best guess would be that the Empire logistics department would have a parts list ranked by importance. Parts at the top would get more resources and would get automated first, then they would work down the list. The parts the prisoners are making may be really far down on the list and they may have started making them long before they were actually needed for the dish.

It's possible that there are massive automated factories also producing those parts, now that the Death Star is close to completion. If the prisons were set up years ago, to build up a stockpile of low priority parts, they can now just keep them going to add their measly contribution to the whole.

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