Are you smarter than a 4th grader?

AladainAF said:

I would think you aim it in a general sense. I am okay with teaching the basics of everything, but math today largely over complicates the basics.

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I think this is the crux of it. Let's be honest here, most people are fucking retarded. Getting them to understand why the math works, when they're children, is an exercise in futility.

If you're a future engineer and have an aptitude for it, over complicating math so they can "understand the why" is also a waste of time. Because they'd figure it out anyway.

All we're doing is making it harder on the dumbs, and wasting time for the smarts.

Gravel said:

All we're doing is making it harder on the dumbs, and wasting time for the smarts.

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If you want to maximize your field's medals you go full Bourbaki from grade one, if you want to maximize the outcome for the less gifted students you go the old way, I.e. the way it's target in Asia that are crushing the west in every measurable way since the west has been teaching in 'innovatives' ways.

Every type of math problem is always Rule #1: Simplify. Word problems by definition are the opposite of simplified questions, and without knowing what subject this is even supposed to teach it's literally a lesson in bullshit. Is this order of operations? Reduction? Algebraic properties?

4 x 12 = 16 x 3
4 x 12 / 4 = 16 x 3 / 4
4 / 4 x 12 = 16 / 4 x 3
1 x 12 = 4 x 3

4 x 12 = 16 x 3
4 x (4 x 3) = (4 x 4) x 3
4 x 4 x 3 = 4 x 4 x 3

Question 3 is the only proper question on the page: Use the specified math (bar model) and show your work. But to do #3 you have to know 3x15 is 45 already. So the subject is past multiplication and division and we have an algebra variable. #4 is just pure WTF I would have trolled that answer hardcore by subtracting 5s and 4s and showing the remainder is different. Take that cuck teacher this doesn't even make sense but it ain't division! #5 and #6 are like... teach math, don't handicap them on the math they do know. #3 gave some good guidance but now you're chopping off legs instead of building a foundation.

Chris said:

I'm a Math teacher.

Asking kids to do simple problems a specific weird way (like common core) is to get 5-10 year olds to understand WHY the methods work rather the just memorizing an abstract algorithm that "just works".

The problem is that more advanced kids taught by shitty teachers don't understand why they are being asked to do it that way, so you get the memes about it. I taught 11-16 and we didn't require specific methods like that to be used.

Times tables are out of fashion for a similar reason, you get kids who remember that 11x12 is 132 but they couldn't apply it to a practical problem because they don't known what multiplication actually is.

Like everything it's about how well the method was being taught.

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Not teaching multiplication table is about as stupid as not teaching kids how to count. You're harming the middle students, because you're worried about the bottom students maybe just memorizing the table and not actually learning multiplication.

That will result increase difficulty going forward for the majority of students. Now instead of knowing the basic math part of the answer to almost every algebra question, they will have to stop and figure out that step first. Those basic number calculations are not put there for any other reason then to make sure that students know their addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division tables. They're put their to catch mistakes in basic math skills that should come automatically at that level. While the real learning is the rest of whats is being taught.

Siddar said:

They need to know it because for some reason they have stopped teaching kids the multiplication tables.

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Because multiplication tables don’t teach kids how to understand numbers, but how to memorize tables.

Animale said:

Because multiplication tables don’t teach kids how to understand numbers, but how to memorize tables.

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"understanding" is a vague and subjective term. How do you prove someone understands something? Its not a very useful metric, even though it gives educators warm fuzzies to talk about it.

Whether you're calculating the dosage of a drug to put in my IV, or calculating the change to give me back after I order fast food, I don't care if you understand numbers. At all. Even a little bit.

I only care that you get the right answer. Like someone who has mastered the multiplication tables will, every time.

Aldarion said:

"understanding" is a vague and subjective term. How do you prove someone understands something? Its not a very useful metric, even though it gives educators warm fuzzies to talk about it.

Whether you're calculating the dosage of a drug to put in my IV, or calculating the change to give me back after I order fast food, I don't care if you understand numbers. At all. Even a little bit.

I only care that you get the right answer. Like someone who has mastered the multiplication tables will, every time.

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The classic engineer vs scientist problem. I’m a scientist so prefer the former. You’re arguing from the engineer perspective. Both are ultimately important but it’s important for kids to think, not just plug and chug. That can come later if needed (such as your examples).

I get what you're saying. I'm a scientist as well but after teaching for this long I can no longer delude myself into thinking the educational system is about scientists.

We're training cashiers, baristas, administrators, and journalists here.

The kids who are gonna become scientists are bored by school from about 2nd grade through high school. Teachers dont teach those kids, they teach themselves.

Siddar said:

Not teaching multiplication table is about as stupid as not teaching kids how to count. You're harming the middle students, because you're worried about the bottom students maybe just memorizing the table and not actually learning multiplication.

That will result increase difficulty going forward for the majority of students. Now instead of knowing the basic math part of the answer to almost every algebra question, they will have to stop and figure out that step first. Those basic number calculations are not put there for any other reason then to make sure that students know their addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division tables. They're put their to catch mistakes in basic math skills that should come automatically at that level. While the real learning is the rest of whats is being taught.

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Hate to break this to you my dude, but learning multiplication is just memorizing tables. The same is true of addition and all basic mathematic operations. Working with larger numbers, one inevitably breaks the operation down into a sequence of smaller operations for which the answers are known. That's how calculation works.

72 % 4 = N * 9
72 = N * 9 * 4
3 * 3 * 2 * 2 * 2 = N * 3 * 3 * 2 * 2
N = 2

The other one works the same way. Break each number into its denominators and you get the same on both sides.

moonarchia said:

72 % 4 = N * 9
72 = N * 9 * 4
3 * 3 * 2 * 2 * 2 = N * 3 * 3 * 2 * 2
N = 2

The other one works the same way. Break each number into its denominators and you get the same on both sides.

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Now imagine trying to do it this way if you had you stop and break out the the bar method for each of the multiplication steps involved?

Void said:

But at some point, memorization is such a time saver that it is essential.

Let's look at what "understanding numbers" would entail for someone that has ZERO multiplication memorized.

9 x 11 = ?

If you are not allowed to memorize anything, how do you solve this problem? You essentially have to add 11+11+11+11+11+11+11+11+11 to get 99.

Now imagine that you have to do this EVERY time you see a multiplication problem. Every time. That's what you are taking away by saying no to memorization.

At some point, the average person says, "Hey, I've multiplied 9 x 11 enough times that I'm just gonna go ahead and remember that it is 99." And from there it becomes obvious that after learning how to "understand" how multiplication works, you adopt a shortcut for numbers up to a certain point. 10 x 10 is a logical point because it allows you to break larger numbers down into smaller sub-problems (which is exactly what "carry the 4" and such involves), but for whatever reason most go to 12.

Pushing for memorization doesn't mean you just completely skip the part where you add 11 to itself 9 times. That's essential and, at least when I was in school decades ago, was the first thing they taught us. But after you understand how that works, fuck yes you should memorize those tables instead of doing it the long way every time. Can you imagine if every adult stopped what they were doing and ticked off "11, 22, 33,..." while they raised 9 fingers, every time they had to do multiplication?

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Is anyone actually saying no memorization?

When it's done well kids do both, they know they can add up 9 elevens to get 99 and also know that 9 x 11 = 99 which is faster.

Show me anyone saying that common core methods should be used in High School or as an adult. These methods are just designed to teach conceptual understanding, not be workable methods.

the teacher for my kids told me they DIDN'T want the kids to memorize the tables.

i go why? you explain the basic concept of multiplication that is "you take X and add it together Y times" 10 x 10 is 10+10... =100
then you take the tables and have they DO multiplication tables for homework it is simple, it WORKS and everyone is happy. because eventually doing the tables= you just know the answer, that is memorization, but it is not as well, it is knowledge.

take tipping for example, my wife LITERALLY cannot figure a tip without a calculator.
i look at a bil and tell her the tip for 210 dollars, tip is 31.50 dollars for 15% & 42 dollars for 20% any amount i can get the basic tip for 15 or 20% in seconds (i usually round up to make it simpler but you know what i mean. 187 dollars tip is 19+9=28.50 dollars- move decimal over 18.7 round up 19, half of 19 is 9.5 add the two 28.50-15% 20% - move decimal point over 2 then double it, 18.70 x2= 37.40.

once you learn the shortcuts and memorize the tables, the BASIC math stuff is so much faster than doing the way common core WANTS it to be taught (Common Core sucks balls and should be Ditched and standards of teaching subjects should go BACK to what they did in the 50's for the sciences, just updated to modern times).

and for god's sake if the kid is not Learning the stuff, FAIL THE KID. that is the one thing i see a lot of..teachers are Afraid to Fail a student. my kids middle school let kids take tests over to improve their grade as many times as they Wanted.

me if i was a teacher, fuck that, high school, it would be sit down shut up and pay attention because less than 50% of the material in the book is going to be in the test. and Cell phones would be put in a cubbywall hanging (one cubby slot per desk) and would be REQUIRED to be there before class started. any kid not doing that would get a 0 for the day. kids these day have access to too much immediate knowledge and a significant portion do not bother to actually learn, they just "google it".

luckily my kids actually are learning (i think)

Aldarion said:

"understanding" is a vague and subjective term. How do you prove someone understands something? Its not a very useful metric, even though it gives educators warm fuzzies to talk about it.

Whether you're calculating the dosage of a drug to put in my IV, or calculating the change to give me back after I order fast food, I don't care if you understand numbers. At all. Even a little bit.

I only care that you get the right answer. Like someone who has mastered the multiplication tables will, every time.

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Good thoughts from the 20th century, but that's not what brains are for my dude. Knowledge is only useful insofar as it supports inspiration. We have machines for the rest. Computation is an equally wasteful expenditure of cognitive resources in the modern era. The computational prowess of our apebrain is hung liek a popcorn shrimp next to the donkeydongs of the machines birthed of our imaginations. Stop counting beans and have an idea dude.

(^•~)v