Ashes of Creation
- Thread starter Tearofsoul
- Start date
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
Go here and give us your nominations!Who's been the biggest Asshat in the last year? Give us your worst ones!
Mahes
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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That very well could be. Given the very nature of this game being touted as a guild verse guild PvP with skirmishes on the side, New World most likely added a very strong perspective to their ideas. I have no doubt that PvP is getting reevaluated.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Yup. Some of the main takeaways from NW
1) One very strong and very toxic guild can essentially kill the population of an entire server - and they don’t care. That is a “win state” to them, because they will either server hop to chase the PvP dragon or quit when they get bored, but the damage has been done
2) If losing is too punitive, people eventually quit
3) The majority of people who want forced open world PvP really just want situations where they have a first strike advantage and a higher chance of winning. They tend to be bottom feeders looking for targets of opportunity vs an actual challenge
4) No one likes walking simulator: the mmo. Don’t make travel a massive pita. It’s novel for a short time, then quickly becomes a barrier to enjoying the game and engaging in content
1) One very strong and very toxic guild can essentially kill the population of an entire server - and they don’t care. That is a “win state” to them, because they will either server hop to chase the PvP dragon or quit when they get bored, but the damage has been done
2) If losing is too punitive, people eventually quit
3) The majority of people who want forced open world PvP really just want situations where they have a first strike advantage and a higher chance of winning. They tend to be bottom feeders looking for targets of opportunity vs an actual challenge
4) No one likes walking simulator: the mmo. Don’t make travel a massive pita. It’s novel for a short time, then quickly becomes a barrier to enjoying the game and engaging in content
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Mahes
Bronze Baronet of the Realm
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I could add more to that list.
5) The dungeon itself should be the challenge, not the barrier to get into it.
6) Collection Nodes should be placed in random locations with random timers. This encourages a need to explore as a player, rather than using a pathing program.
7) Find a different way to reward the winning guild that does not involve penalizing the loosing guild/population.
8) Crafting should not require an obscene amount of a lower grade reagent just to create a higher grade item. Some lower grade is fine, as it gives continual value to the item.
9) High end items should be powerful. Increasing power should be smooth all the way to the highest item. Players should want the higher item, and not feel as though the time for getting it does not justify the need for the item itself.
10) Players actually do like mounts(This one is already taken care of).
11) World mobs should never have a respawn timer that is faster than what it takes to kill them, loot them, look at the loot, and walk away from the fight.
12) Quest mob timers should not be any longer than what it takes to kill them, loot them, look at the loot and walk away from the fight.
13) Players should be able to choose where in the world they start the game or quickly be able to leave the start zone and easily meet with other players.
14) Storage and trade should be universal not location based.
There are more but those are off the top of my head.
5) The dungeon itself should be the challenge, not the barrier to get into it.
6) Collection Nodes should be placed in random locations with random timers. This encourages a need to explore as a player, rather than using a pathing program.
7) Find a different way to reward the winning guild that does not involve penalizing the loosing guild/population.
8) Crafting should not require an obscene amount of a lower grade reagent just to create a higher grade item. Some lower grade is fine, as it gives continual value to the item.
9) High end items should be powerful. Increasing power should be smooth all the way to the highest item. Players should want the higher item, and not feel as though the time for getting it does not justify the need for the item itself.
10) Players actually do like mounts(This one is already taken care of).
11) World mobs should never have a respawn timer that is faster than what it takes to kill them, loot them, look at the loot, and walk away from the fight.
12) Quest mob timers should not be any longer than what it takes to kill them, loot them, look at the loot and walk away from the fight.
13) Players should be able to choose where in the world they start the game or quickly be able to leave the start zone and easily meet with other players.
14) Storage and trade should be universal not location based.
There are more but those are off the top of my head.
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Not necessarily. Sharif was into the whole "Guild vs. Guild" territorial control thing of ArcheAge, so he wanted to build a better ArcheAge. So maybe they are doubling down on the GvG aspect, because clearly "New World did it wrong by shifting focus to PvE too much."
Problem is: You can't build a better ArchAge. Long-term (as in: persistent world) player vs. player with territory control and no way to disable PvP, especially with full loot, is just a niche genre that doesn't mix well with PvE and players interested in that. One aspect: starting late in such games just sucks for new players, so latecomers have less incentive to start playing the game, so the game's organic growth is limited. Think about bored level 60's ganking newbies in STVietnam, except they can now also loot your corpse. Crowfall tried to alleviate this exact problem by frequently resetting the world/progress. You can still see the crater smouldering.
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Daidraco
Avatar of War Slayer
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Pretty much why I feel like the hype around the game is going to crash and burn. Tons of people are going to play it at launch and I imagine a huge chunk of them are going to walk away mad cause its not what they "thought" it was going to be. I find it obvious that the game is going to be a hard, almost masochistic, PVP game and the fan boys dont seem to recognize that.
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Would be nice to see an MMORPG without a shitty tacked on PvP system or some ass retard faction shit that splits the playerbase. A game that is built on exploring a world and being a persistent online world at it's core that doesn't try and prevent people from grouping.
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It's hopium, plain and simple. Every new MMO had this to some form and degree and crashed and burned, from Aion to New World.
What game companies don't seem to understand is how fickle MMO players are: They are reluctant to invest thousands of hours into a game that is seen as declining. Sure, hype brings the initial box sales, but if you advertised your game with false promises they are going to resent you. And tell their friends about it.
What game companies don't seem to understand is how fickle MMO players are: They are reluctant to invest thousands of hours into a game that is seen as declining. Sure, hype brings the initial box sales, but if you advertised your game with false promises they are going to resent you. And tell their friends about it.
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Grim1
Ahn'Qiraj Raider
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Games that reward griefers at the expense of carebares are destined to niche status or outright failure. Haven't followed this that much but if AoC has PvE servers or something where the carebares can quest and progress in peace then it has a chance at making boatloads of money. Has to be a good game though. New World didn't force PvP and still lost tons of players.
Valderen
Space Pirate
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I haven't followed the game much, but I remember that one of the core gameplay loop was that PVE build and grow the Nodes which would eventually be open to attack by PVP players to take over/destroy.
If this still remains this way, it's doomed to fail. I don't see how this is viable. PVE player build and grow a node, get a house, invest time and gold only to potentially lose everything to PVP? PVE players would leave in droves the first this happens.
PVP oriented devs always seems to beleive that if they design an interesting enough PVP system that PVE player would engage with it. Some might, but by large PVE oriented players are not interested in PVP.
It still has a lot of cool PVE systems so maybe people will put up with it.
If this still remains this way, it's doomed to fail. I don't see how this is viable. PVE player build and grow a node, get a house, invest time and gold only to potentially lose everything to PVP? PVE players would leave in droves the first this happens.
PVP oriented devs always seems to beleive that if they design an interesting enough PVP system that PVE player would engage with it. Some might, but by large PVE oriented players are not interested in PVP.
It still has a lot of cool PVE systems so maybe people will put up with it.
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Nirgon
Log Wizard
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Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Even if you didn’t pvp, pvp influenced pve
1) travel costs were heavily discounted if your faction owned territories or forts that gave travel cost reductions. If your faction owned shit, you would literally have to spend 25% or more of your max Azoth to travel anywhere
2) town owners (determined through pvp) controlled town taxes and town development. They could also kick you from invasions, the closest thing to raid content in this game
AGS has been trying to soften a lot of these “pvp fucks over pve” elements, which says a lot about the viability of those types of mechanics
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The basic design behind it is most likely colored by Sharif's own perspective: To safeguard the PvE players' investment, they have to run to a big enough guild to "protect" them from those nasty "other" PvP griefers. For a price of course, as the guild then sets the tax rate to fuel their coffers. Also, only guild leaders can have those prestige flying mounts.
This whole setup tries to funnel people into big guilds, so that the leaders of said guilds (in this case: Sharif) can feel more important and reside above the plebs. Once the PvE players realize what is going on the PvE part has to be very good, or people will just fuck off.
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The biggest problem is pvp is always high reward low risk in these games. Pvper rolls up in a pvp optimized spec at full health and mana and smokes some guy from behind before he even knows your there. Then they run off before the big guild can respond so the big guild doesn’t even matter most of the time.
You need mechanics that make projecting the pve players actually possible and the system can work.
you also need larger areas that just aren’t pvp even if they offer worse rewards.
You need mechanics that make projecting the pve players actually possible and the system can work.
you also need larger areas that just aren’t pvp even if they offer worse rewards.
Cybsled
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
- 17,208
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Any system that lets a player or group of players severely impact the play experience of the majority is always going to fail
A lot of the proposed AoC design sounds like things that Sharif hated about AA: safe zones, pirate faction, and bots. And I can understand that, but I think he is proposing a game style that will not appeal to the majority after that first month or two honeymoon ends
A lot of the proposed AoC design sounds like things that Sharif hated about AA: safe zones, pirate faction, and bots. And I can understand that, but I think he is proposing a game style that will not appeal to the majority after that first month or two honeymoon ends
Nirgon
Log Wizard
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Protected many croots on red99
Best system, people will cry but... best system (the rule set, not the nonfunctional armor class / jacked up pvp resist code and custom garbage that project did)
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jayrebb
Naxxramas 1.0 Raider
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Kriptini
Vyemm Raider
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Y'all need to remember this really important point that Neranja implied but some of you need to read explicitly: Sharif is building a game for himself not for you. His guild got owned in ArcheAge because in spite of his rampant RMT and huge zerg, they were trash. He wants to build a game where he can feed his power fantasy just from having the biggest numbers, which includes choking out the economy for everyone else because he and his peeps can't press buttons to save their lives.
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I mean you could go back to the OG PVP based MMORPG like Shadowbane back in the day. One guild basically ended up being on top all the players wanted to join that guild because no one wants to be a fucking loser, or in the case of broken ass Shadowbane they simply quit because of the vast amounts of resources it took to get a city up and running only to be destroyed by the local chad PVP guild in less than a hour.
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