Avengers: Endgame (2019)

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Jive Turkey

Jive Turkey

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Qhue said:
The more I think about it the more annoyed I am about one aspect of the ending
Cap travelling back to 194X to be with Peggy is super selfish for the guy who is supposed to be 'in it until the end'. Not to mention that he knows what happens for the next 60 years so he's gonna sit back and let a whole host of really awful things happen and do nothing about it? Really? I just don't buy it that he would be capable of sitting on his hands and not taking action when he saw shit going down.

Well that and there's all sorts of issues with him even being around given the whole business with going back in time being to a different reality. It would have made more sense if he had come back onto the platform as an old guy.
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There's still a Captain America in that timeline that will do all the things he did. It's no different than when he went back and fought himself. If he was sitting back, he was doing it with the knowledge that there already existed another Captain America. In fact, that's the only point when they run into a timetravel paradox. They already said they can't affect the future by fucking with the past. If that was true, then the present that old man Captain America showed up in wouldn't be the one from which he just left. He needed to be pulled out of that timeline with quantum mechanic timemachine. But it didn't really affect the plot, so whatever
 
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Harshaw

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Jive Turkey said:
There's still a Captain America in that timeline that will do all the things he did. It's no different than when he went back and fought himself. If he was sitting back, he was doing it with the knowledge that there already existed another Captain America. In fact, that's the only point when they run into a timetravel paradox. They already said they can't affect the future by fucking with the past. If that was true, then the present that old man Captain America showed up in wouldn't be the one from which he just left. He needed to be pulled out of that timeline with quantum mechanic timemachine. But it didn't really affect the plot, so whatever
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This ia supposed to be covered in a What If on Disney+.
 
j00t

j00t

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yeah, we should wait a week for non spoiler tags

old cap sitting there breaks the entire "you can't affect the past" thing that they keep spouting throughout the movie. if cap goes back and stays back, he just created a brand new timeline. which means he didn't bring back the stones to HIS timeline. it's silly, but this is the exact reason why i don't like time travel plot devices. as humans we automatically think linearly. we can think non-linearly if we are taught to so when a movie sets up the plot of time travel, we start thinking non-linearly based on what the rules are told to us as. however, clearly the writers and directors are making up the rules (which is fine, it's their world) but because no one is holding THEIR hand on what the rules are, they just end up subconsciously breaking them. then we as the audience are left going "wait, what?"

it was required by the plot to give cap his nice send-off, so it's excusable, but it's still evidence of time travel being a bad plot mechanic.
 
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Qhue

Qhue

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Jive Turkey said:
There's still a Captain America in that timeline that will do all the things he did. It's no different than when he went back and fought himself. If he was sitting back, he was doing it with the knowledge that there already existed another Captain America. In fact, that's the only point when they run into a timetravel paradox. They already said they can't affect the future by fucking with the past. If that was true, then the present that old man Captain America showed up in wouldn't be the one from which he just left. He needed to be pulled out of that timeline with quantum mechanic timemachine. But it didn't really affect the plot, so whatever
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It's not a matter of the things he already did, it's more a matter of living through the second half of the 20th century knowing that JFK will get shot, or 9/11 will happen, or a million people die in Africa from famine and wars and not do anything about it.

This is the same guy who caused the whole Civil War because he said he couldn't sit idly by watching bad things happen. Especially if he is married to the founder / director of S.H.I.E.L.D. Hell would Peggy even make S.H.I.E.L.D. if Steve was around to be happy with?

As an aside how cool was it that Jarvis was seen in 1970? Funny that the only character to make the transition from the TV/Netflix stuff to the movies was freaking Jarvis from Agent Carter.
 
Wombat

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You guys are neglecting the option that Cap always traveled back in time, always married Peggy (and became 'the husband' mentioned in Ant-Man), and always also lived as Old Man Cap through the entire Marvel universe, and him not coming back just completed the loop. Turns out Cap was always fighting Hydra-as-Shield, and was the reason they never won.

The problem being that these closed loop timetravel options always turn into predestination paraxodes. Though if you suppose you have alternate timelines, then obviously the MCU timeline is not a branch where paradoxes happened and blew up reality, and.... this is why everyone hates time travel movies.
 
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j00t

j00t

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Qhue said:
It's not a matter of the things he already did, it's more a matter of living through the second half of the 20th century knowing that JFK will get shot, or 9/11 will happen, or a million people die in Africa from famine and wars and not do anything about it.

This is the same guy who caused the whole Civil War because he said he couldn't sit idly by watching bad things happen. Especially if he is married to the founder / director of S.H.I.E.L.D. Hell would Peggy even make S.H.I.E.L.D. if Steve was around to be happy with?

As an aside how cool was it that Jarvis was seen in 1970? Funny that the only character to make the transition from the TV/Netflix stuff to the movies was freaking Jarvis from Agent Carter.
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ha yeah i thought the same thing when i saw Jarvis.
this is honestly the whole is batman dead or did he retire debate again. batman and captain america just simply don't retire. i know it's easy to attribute things from the comic book character to the movie character when they are obviously different... but MCU captain america has definitely demonstrated to be the type of person that just wouldn't. heck, he wouldn't even be the one to go back in time because he'd recognize the temptation to stay. he'd recognize that no, as much as i would LIKE to go back and have the life that was stolen from me, i would NOT be able to just sit back and allow certain things to happen.
 
Z

zignor 4

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I don't know when I'm going to have the time to see this fucking thing so I just want one thing spoiled:

Did they finally replace occasionally-smashes when he's not sad Hulk-lite with actual Hulk who doesn't finish the job until he's wearing the asshole linings of his enemies as a skinsuit?
 
Haus

Haus

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zignor 4 said:
I don't know when I'm going to have the time to see this fucking thing so I just want one thing spoiled:

Did they finally replace occasionally-smashes when he's not sad Hulk-lite with actual Hulk who doesn't finish the job until he's wearing the asshole linings of his enemies as a skinsuit?
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I'll be nice and maintain Spoiler Ettiquite. ;)

No, you get essentially "Professor Hulk". Google it.

Also...

Ravishing said:
Also doesn't "destroying the stones" contradict a lot of things about them? I don't really know the full lore or how he got his gauntlet working again to be able to snap them out of existence.

I loved seeing Cap with Thor powers, then completely disapointed we'll never see them on display again. Unless there is more time-travel shenanigans.
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As for the hammer. The shards of the original are still probably around New Asgard. And since Thor is now in "King Thor" mode and should be the conduit to the Odinforce now he SHOULD be able to reforge it, then annoint a new "Thor".

"Destroying the stones" was really, and his quote I believe was "I reduced them to atoms". My bet is they will naturally re-coalesce into the stones at random points in the universe. since as Tilda Swinton showed it they are essential to a reality's time and space maintaining cohesion. My bigger question will be how does Dr Strange roll since the Eye of Agamato was essentially a trinket harnessing the time stone. My bet is the next Dr Strange movie is his quest to find where the stone "re-emerged".

Zindan said:
As for the next Phase, there is a high chance it will be trash.
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I am very close to "I'd bet money it will suck". They lost a ton of the faces of the franchise, and the minds that were directing it.
 
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Qhue

Qhue

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The Russo brothers were essential to the success of Phase 3. Things could have easily gone south after Age of Ultron but they went forward and crafted something that really wove the pieces of Phase 3 into a solid product.

I could see them being brought back in for something in late Phase 4 or possibly even Phase 5 (if we get there) but coming up with a new grand plan is gonna be super hard with the pieces left on the board. The main ace-up-the-sleeve that Disney has ahold of now is Disney+ and the potential for extended world building via these premium miniseries. They can be used to flesh out a lot of stuff that you wouldnt otherwise want to craft a full feature film around.
 
Chukzombi

Chukzombi

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pharmakos said:
Why drop spoilers? The rule of thumb has always been to wait a week after release. Came in to read reviews, saw a few pages of polite spoiler tags, then the last couple became eh.

Going to see it either tomorrow or Sunday.
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it was laziness, what else, im still using spoiler tags because its appropriate.
 
Jive Turkey

Jive Turkey

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j00t said:
yeah, we should wait a week for non spoiler tags

old cap sitting there breaks the entire "you can't affect the past" thing that they keep spouting throughout the movie. if cap goes back and stays back, he just created a brand new timeline. which means he didn't bring back the stones to HIS timeline. it's silly, but this is the exact reason why i don't like time travel plot devices. as humans we automatically think linearly. we can think non-linearly if we are taught to so when a movie sets up the plot of time travel, we start thinking non-linearly based on what the rules are told to us as. however, clearly the writers and directors are making up the rules (which is fine, it's their world) but because no one is holding THEIR hand on what the rules are, they just end up subconsciously breaking them. then we as the audience are left going "wait, what?"

it was required by the plot to give cap his nice send-off, so it's excusable, but it's still evidence of time travel being a bad plot mechanic.
Click to expand...

The thing is, they didn't even need to have him show up as an old man for his send off. They could've just shown the audience him dancing with his ladybird in the past and we would've got it. Since Bucky clearly knew the plan, they could've had Bucky hint at the rest of the team that he would fill them in so they didn't spend the rest of their lives wondering what happened to him. Would've been just as impactful. So the only reason for him to show back up was to hand off Captain America duties to Falcon, which seems like it was more of a Studio mandate than a story telling decision
 
Jive Turkey

Jive Turkey

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Wombat said:
You guys are neglecting the option that Cap always traveled back in time, always married Peggy (and became 'the husband' mentioned in Ant-Man), and always also lived as Old Man Cap through the entire Marvel universe, and him not coming back just completed the loop. Turns out Cap was always fighting Hydra-as-Shield, and was the reason they never won.

The problem being that these closed loop timetravel options always turn into predestination paraxodes. Though if you suppose you have alternate timelines, then obviously the MCU timeline is not a branch where paradoxes happened and blew up reality, and.... this is why everyone hates time travel movies.
Click to expand...

But they made it clear early on that when you travel back to your past, it changes course and no longer shares a future. Changing the past isn't supposed to change your present, so having Cap show up old was the only time they didn't play by their own rules
 
Fadaar

Fadaar

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j00t said:
since we're dropping spoilers... when spider-man goes back to school at the end... did ned get dusted too? did MJ(or whatever zendaya's character's name is)? did all his friends? he's walking into a school that is 5 years older than him.
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That's a good point, why the fuck are they still in high school? Anyone that didn't get snapped should be long gone, assuming the US stayed somewhat normal (to an extent) for those five years.
 
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Aychamo BanBan

Aychamo BanBan

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Fadaar said:
That's a good point, why the fuck are they still in high school? Anyone that didn't get snapped should be long gone, assuming the US stayed somewhat normal (to an extent) for those five years.
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Think the next spiderman will be before End Game? You're right, it makes no sense for a bunch of 23 year olds to be on a high school field trip.
 
Paranoia

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so wait ...
Cap has to allow hydra to infiltrate shield. Does Cap have to let all that bad shit happen that computer nazi showed him was hydra (ie winter soldier killing howard stark?) I just don't see cap allowing that bad shit to happen?
 
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Aychamo BanBan

Aychamo BanBan

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Paranoia said:
so wait ...
Cap has to allow hydra to infiltrate shield. Does Cap have to let all that bad shit happen that computer nazi showed him was hydra (ie winter soldier killing howard stark?) I just don't see cap allowing that bad shit to happen?
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Can't Captain America just get his dick wet without everyone pointing out plot holes? jk
 
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Fadaar

Fadaar

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Also with regards to Cap:

Would have been better if he left the shield and a note "You two figure it out".
 
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BoozeCube

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Falxy-US said:
So, where is the glove and stones now? :)
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So here is where it gets super stupid. Tony snaps and wins it all the stones are too powerful for a mortal so he dies. Yet the gauntlet and stones are still there before Cap takes them back through the time machine.

It’s like they forgot that the snapping thing means nothing and is just a gesture Thanos used and also you don’t have to use all the stones at once. Any of the non-retard hero’s could have used the reality stone to bring back Nat, Tony, Gamora, again nobody seems to understand how much power this shit has and how all times lines, realities and shit across and universe could have been bent to the will of anyone after Thanos was no longer a threat.
 
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