Baldur's Gate 3 by Larian Games

Cybsled · Jul 22, 2023

It has nothing to do with blue hairs/etc. It has to do with modern game design. A lot of modern RPGs in the PC/Console space have been moving away from race locked classes or limitations, or stat limitations, for decades now if the player actually makes the character from scratch vs. it being some canned character. If they do retain it, then it typically ends up being a system of "these races get this perk for free", but you aren't locked out of getting that perk necessarily on other races....you just don't get it as a freebie. The usual demand from most players in that space has been "I really want to customize this character to what I want". If you want to be a gnome, that is cool. But many players didn't want to HAVE to be a gnome because gnome was the only option. You can see some Asian MMOs trying to gender/race lock some classes (although I suspect a lot of that has to do with them limiting the animation/armor work they have to do for it), but almost 100% of the time you start hearing complaints from players of "this class is cool, but it would be great if I could be a male/female character instead or if I could be an human/elf instead of this loli shit". Which Lost Ark has slowly started doing. BDO started to do the same thing also from what I recall.

In that sense, with table top becoming more mainstream, it isn't surprising they are trying to align with those PC/Console space expectations from the larger player base.

TheAylix · Jul 22, 2023

Caliane said:
you are brainfarting on that. 16 and 17=+3. the difference is 17 gets you that next +1 at level 4, then another +1 at level 12. for a total of +5 at 12.
While a 16 start, gets you +4 at level 8, and thats it.

Magic items may justify a 19 base. we'll have to see what larien puts in. same with larva corruption.
(There should be more +1 and +3 items, but theres not much or any in tabletop.)

IIRC, in Baldur's Gate 3 you get +2 ability points to assign at levels 4, 8, and 12. These points aren't subject to the diminishing returns for increasing ability score points on character creation, so if you have a wizard with a 16 INT going into level 4, they can get boosted to 18 INT. Ability points gained this way can't be used to increase any ability beyond 20, so a character that starts with either 16 or 17 in any ability score will be capped at 20 by level 8 regardless.

The only way I'm aware of to get ability scores naturally above 20 is through something like a Manual of Gainful Exercise or a Tome of Understanding - which should add an innate +2 to both the ability score and the ability score cap (ie. 22). However, I don't think we know if those items will be in the final release.

Here's a pic I just took from the most recent release, showing Gale (who starts with 16 INT) getting 18 INT when hitting level 4:

Caliane · Jul 22, 2023

shit, yeap. 5e lets you +2 a single ability score.

I also didn't mention fighters get additional ASI at 6 and 14. rogues at 10.

Ability Score Improvement (ASI) in DnD 5E explained | Dice Cove

Unlock your character's potential with Ability Score Improvement in 5E. Learn when and how to optimize stats for a stronger, more versatile hero.

dicecove.com

reavor · Jul 22, 2023

Cybsled said:
It has nothing to do with blue hairs/etc. It has to do with modern game design. A lot of modern RPGs in the PC/Console space have been moving away from race locked classes or limitations, or stat limitations, for decades now if the player actually makes the character from scratch vs. it being some canned character. If they do retain it, then it typically ends up being a system of "these races get this perk for free", but you aren't locked out of getting that perk necessarily on other races....you just don't get it as a freebie. The usual demand from most players in that space has been "I really want to customize this character to what I want". If you want to be a gnome, that is cool. But many players didn't want to HAVE to be a gnome because gnome was the only option. You can see some Asian MMOs trying to gender/race lock some classes (although I suspect a lot of that has to do with them limiting the animation/armor work they have to do for it), but almost 100% of the time you start hearing complaints from players of "this class is cool, but it would be great if I could be a male/female character instead or if I could be an human/elf instead of this loli shit". Which Lost Ark has slowly started doing. BDO started to do the same thing also from what I recall.

In that sense, with table top becoming more mainstream, it isn't surprising they are trying to align with those PC/Console space expectations from the larger player base.

Lies. it is absolutely the wokesters pressing for social justice in games, which means races are bad. Just look at wotc over the past few years

zombiewizardhawk · Jul 23, 2023

This seems about on par with crying about fast travel in the elder scrolls/fallout games. Is it somehow mandated that you can no longer pick the optimal race/class combos as if they didn't make these changes allowing for freedom for those who want it?

uniqueuser · Jul 23, 2023

Cybsled said:
It has nothing to do with blue hairs/etc. It has to do with modern game design.

And just who do you think is designing modern games?

Aside from that, MMOs/ARPGs aren't narrative-driven games so most players are in favor of/simply don't care about the implications of racial uniformity. Doing the same to a traditional CRPG undermines their primary purpose, which is to tell an interesting story. If it's going to do that well then it should at least be internally consistent, which would require references to racial differences across all other aspects of the game to be similarly homogenized, and it's safe to say that's not going to happen.

Burns · Jul 23, 2023

Josh Sawyer (Black Isle & Obsidian) on powergaming in response to an article about doing it in BG3:

His games:

2023-07-23 04.52.58 en.wikipedia.org dd941f13a314.png

velk · Jul 23, 2023

uniqueuser said:
And just who do you think is designing modern games?

Aside from that, MMOs/ARPGs aren't narrative-driven games so most players are in favor of/simply don't care about the implications of racial uniformity. Doing the same to a traditional CRPG undermines their primary purpose, which is to tell an interesting story.

Ima stop you right there and challenge you to come up with a single story element that relies on, say, a halfling player character only having 15 strength instead of 17.

Or, to follow 5E more closely, a story element that is ruined by the PC having an 80% chance to pass a strength check vs having a 70% chance to pass a strength check.

While I can appreciate the argument that racial stats are interesting, and I even agree with it, suggesting that lack of it limits storytelling in a single player is veering quickly into pants on head territory.

Hatorade · Jul 23, 2023

Caliane said:
shit, yeap. 5e lets you +2 a single ability score.

I also didn't mention fighters get additional ASI at 6 and 14. rogues at 10.

Ability Score Improvement (ASI) in DnD 5E explained | Dice Cove

Unlock your character's potential with Ability Score Improvement in 5E. Learn when and how to optimize stats for a stronger, more versatile hero.

dicecove.com

It is that or pick a feat and feats are insanely strong game changing abilities. Typically if you only playing to level 10 or so two feats are better than ability scores but really depends on what kind of build you going for.

Grabbit Allworth · Jul 23, 2023

velk said:
Ima stop you right there and challenge you to come up with a single story element that relies on, say, a halfling player character only having 15 strength instead of 17.

Or, to follow 5E more closely, a story element that is ruined by the PC having an 80% chance to pass a strength check vs having a 70% chance to pass a strength check.

While I can appreciate the argument that racial stats are interesting, and I even agree with it, suggesting that lack of it limits storytelling in a single player is veering quickly into pants on head territory.

First, I want to reiterate that I am speaking from the tabletop perspective. I'm not even annoyed by the PC situation. It's a (mostly) single player experience and my concerns just aren't relevant there.

Now,

I don't think the argument in favor of homogenizing stats prevents storytelling, but it threatens verisimilitude. It also has the potential to steal moments where an individual could (or supposed to) shine. The veil of buy-in for players is reaaaaaaally thin and it doesn't take many "wtf, that makes no sense" moments to lose them. Players that don't care about the game are worse than not having someone in the seat at all.

I've had these types of conversations with people on multiple occasions and the vast majority of people that don't seem to care about it are people that have spent a lot of time reading about D&D. In some of those cases they've even bought some of the books, but they have very little (if any) experience actually playing the game. However, the reality is that most players would like to have something to contribute to the group that no one else in the party can offer. Or, at the very least, not be able to do their 'thing' as well as they can. It's human nature to want to feel needed and doing that on a heroic scale is one facet of the game that makes it appealing for a lot of people.

The race people choose for their characters is, very often, an important part of the calculus in determining what 'thing' they're going to be good at. Certainly, some people make the decisions for nothing more than aesthetic reasons, but I strongly suspect they're in the minority.

There's already a lot of valid complaints that every 5e character of the same class/sub-class is too similar. Yet some people believe that further homogenizing characters by making race not matter, is a good idea?

Nirgon · Jul 23, 2023

Grabbit Allworth said:
First, I want to reiterate that I am speaking from the tabletop perspective. I'm not even annoyed by the PC situation. It's a (mostly) single player experience and my concerns just aren't relevant there.

Now,

I don't think the argument in favor of homogenizing stats prevents storytelling, but it threatens verisimilitude. It also has the potential to steal moments where an individual could (or supposed to) shine. The veil of buy-in for players is reaaaaaaally thin and it doesn't take many "wtf, that makes no sense" moments to lose them. Players that don't care about the game are worse than not having someone in the seat at all.

I've had these types of conversations with people on multiple occasions and the vast majority of people that don't seem to care about it are people that have spent a lot of time reading about D&D. In some of those cases they've even bought some of the books, but they have very little (if any) experience actually playing the game. However, the reality is that most players would like to have something to contribute to the group that no one else in the party can offer. Or, at the very least, not be able to do their 'thing' as well as they can. It's human nature to want to feel needed and doing that on a heroic scale is one facet of the game that makes it appealing for a lot of people.

The race people choose for their characters is, very often, an important part of the calculus in determining what 'thing' they're going to be good at. Certainly, some people make the decisions for nothing more than aesthetic reasons, but I strongly suspect they're in the minority.

There's already a lot of valid complaints that every 5e character of the same class/sub-class is too similar. Yet some people believe that further homogenizing characters by making race not matter, is a good idea?

Immersion and a sense of authenticity is the secret ingredient. I'll say it till I die.

Droigan · Jul 23, 2023

Sven live on the podcast / twitch show Dropped Frames now with Cohhcarnage, Itmejp and Ezikiel.

Caliane · Jul 23, 2023

Nirgon said:
Immersion and a sense of authenticity is the secret ingredient. I'll say it till I die.

Also, needs to be pointed out. Roleplaying. the entire point is to put yourself into a role that isn't you, and play it. this is EXPRESSLY setting up boundries and limiting rules that you are supposed to challenge yourself with.
Anyone thats ever done anything creative knows thats a fact. Limits in budget, needing to hit guidelines set by someone else, etc breeds creativity. you need to get creative to get around limitations.
the 5e push for anything goes, and there are no rules makes a very boring and uninteresting world. that paladins can be anyone for any reason, with no allegiance to any god, removes everything interesting about paladins.

Ambiturner · Jul 23, 2023

zombiewizardhawk said:
This seems about on par with crying about fast travel in the elder scrolls/fallout games. Is it somehow mandated that you can no longer pick the optimal race/class combos as if they didn't make these changes allowing for freedom for those who want it?

Yes, because there isn't an optimal if everything is exactly the same. I'm fine with someone playing a little pixie fairy berserker if they really want to, but it should be a major pain in the ass compared to an ogre.

Allowing more choices = good
Taking away consequences = bad

Kirun · Jul 23, 2023

Daezuel said:
my wife would tear me a new asshole.

Tear her a new asshole. Show her what's up and how to not have kids.

Tuco · Jul 23, 2023

velk said:
Ima stop you right there and challenge you to come up with a single story element that relies on, say, a halfling player character only having 15 strength instead of 17.

Or, to follow 5E more closely, a story element that is ruined by the PC having an 80% chance to pass a strength check vs having a 70% chance to pass a strength check.

While I can appreciate the argument that racial stats are interesting, and I even agree with it, suggesting that lack of it limits storytelling in a single player is veering quickly into pants on head territory.

Hodor had 16 str in this clip. If he had 15 they would've broken through. If he had 17 he wouldn't have traveled through time to break his younger selves brain.

Nirgon · Jul 23, 2023

Are the wokes gonna lose it over the fact you can make non ugly female characters in this

They really go out of their way to make sure its impossible in nearly everything... wonder how this one will go

They also apparently track character creation choices, why I do not know for sure

Tuco · Jul 23, 2023

Nirgon said:
Are the wokes gonna lose it over the fact you can make non ugly female characters in this

View attachment 483766

They really go out of their way to make sure its impossible in nearly everything... wonder how this one will go

They also apparently track character creation choices, why I do not know for sure

If that's truly custom and is animated well it'd be one of the best custom faces I've seen in a game.

Cybsled · Jul 23, 2023

Nirgon said:
Are the wokes gonna lose it over the fact you can make non ugly female characters in this

No, just the over reactionary edgelords on this forum

Dashel · Jul 23, 2023

I'm strongly leaning Battlemaster Fighter for my first play through.
I feel like I pretty much have to take Githyanki for the Misty Step (and improved jump). Unless I'm way over estimating how good that is. Or Half Orc I guess.

I'm playing with 3 friends multiplayer only. We have Paladin, Warlock and I think Ranger. Plus my Fighter.
Feels like we'll be ok with that and just rely on heal potions and whatever the Paladin can do. Plus Second Wind and similar self heals.

Whats everyone else playing?

Baldur's Gate 3 by Larian Games

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider

Vyemm Raider

Avatar of War Slayer

I'm With HER ♀

Potato del Grande

Vyemm Raider

Avatar of War Slayer

Trakanon Raider

A nice asshole.

Ahn'Qiraj Raider

Log Wizard

Trakanon Raider

Avatar of War Slayer

Ssraeszha Raider

Buzzfeed Editor

I got Tuco'd!

Log Wizard

I got Tuco'd!

Naxxramas 1.0 Raider

Blackwing Lair Raider