Bioware's "Anthem"

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Qhue

Qhue

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Unions are not a good fit for the software industry, however the gaming software industry does need to get their shit together.

Giving people stress to the point where talent is running away to go code HR software instead of making great art is bad. The incompetent leadership and culture of hazing has got to end.
 
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Utnayan

Utnayan

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a c i d.f l y said:
I hate unions and their concept, full stop.

That said, job protections make sense when said job isn't about innovation. There's not a whole lot of tech or design or process improvements around spraying water at a building. First responder medical care on the other hand...

That said, unions would fuck the software industry. If you're not constantly on your game, you are wasted space or we relegate you to menial task mongering like sending out updates (that we'll eventually automate you out of a job), data generation (again, negated by automation), or... I dunno, there's always something a random fuck could do that would take some of the bullshit off my plate. Still, I wouldn't want to pay someone $65k+/yr when they can't even read code for any significant period of time when I can hire 4 coders out of country that can do 20x the work in the same time period. Granted, that code is never pretty, and sucks to work on when it goes legacy, but it's more than the guy who can't code for dick that we're forced to keep because he passed the interview process.

/rant
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This is exactly what would happen when 60% of the gaing industry right now is filled with Cry baby hacks who think their shit doesn't stink and also think they are entitled to their job when they under perform.
 
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Delly

Delly

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I don't really get the hate for unions. Just like with anything in the world, you give something too much power and it becomes a shitshow. Some unions aren't as strong as others and thus both sides have a voice. The teachers union is dangerously strong which is where you get the shitty employees not being fired type of thing.

Regardless of what is done it is clear things need to change and there needs to be a balance of power, doesn't really matter if unions are a part of that equation or not as long as the balance of power is close to equivalent.
 
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Qhue

Qhue

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'Human Resources' works when it is actually a strong department which advocates for the value of the employees as a capital resource that must be properly maintained. I have seen this happen in exactly one place and they not only had a strong culture as a result (without any of the usual Kumbaya 'Ethos' / 'Values' / whatever bullshit) but were extremely efficient. They got more done in fewer actual hours than many other equivalent shops.

Naturally the value got high enough that they were acquired by a larger company and the whole thing got shattered into its component bits :(
 
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Utnayan

Utnayan

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Delly said:
I don't really get the hate for unions. Just like with anything in the world, you give something too much power and it becomes a shitshow. Some unions aren't as strong as others and thus both sides have a voice. The teachers union is dangerously strong which is where you get the shitty employees not being fired type of thing.

Regardless of what is done it is clear things need to change and there needs to be a balance of power, doesn't really matter if unions are a part of that equation or not as long as the balance of power is close to equivalent.
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Well, the free market will dictate it. Companies want to make money. When they lose money, they start learning on their own what they need to do better. The gaming industry is at a flux right now in noticing that. Either they adopt, or they die - and let the market dictate it.
 
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Grim1

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The gaming industry is part of the entertainment industry as a whole. There are so many idiots willing to work for nothing to just be a part of the industry that it makes getting a decent wage almost impossible.

Why should a gaming company pay top dollar when there are a ton of very talented people willing to work for next to nothing, just so they can follow their "dream".

The same is true for music, movies, etc, etc. Too many desperate people willing to do anything just to get in the door. Supply and demand.

Not a fan of unions, hate them for the most part. But they do have their place, especially in entertainment. Check what the writer's guild is going through right now with the talent agencies. Without the guild, the writers wouldn't have a chance.
 
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Utnayan

Utnayan

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wat said:
Decades of propaganda.
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Decades of worthless workers being protected by Unions who are in the pockets of the same organization that they are supposed to protect employees from to begin with.
 
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Delly

Delly

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Same shit can be said about the government, businesses, and all kinds of things. We need to stop the pendulum from swinging too far one way.

Unions = bad is just a fucking lazy argument and one of the most common irrational thoughts.
 
kaid

kaid

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Grim1 said:
The gaming industry is part of the entertainment industry as a whole. There are so many idiots willing to work for nothing to just be a part of the industry that it makes getting a decent wage almost impossible.

Why should a gaming company pay top dollar when there are a ton of very talented people willing to work for next to nothing, just so they can follow their "dream".

The same is true for music, movies, etc, etc. Too many desperate people willing to do anything just to get in the door. Supply and demand.

Not a fan of unions, hate them for the most part. But they do have their place, especially in entertainment. Check what the writer's guild is going through right now with the talent agencies. Without the guild, the writers wouldn't have a chance.
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Combined with most of the people really hot to work in the industry are really young often as their first real job so don't really understand what "normal" working conditions in their field should even be in the first place. So its a lot easier to abuse these workers because they A) really like working with computer games and B) don't have the confidence to say no when shit is getting really fucked up. Unions work well for things like this as you have people who have both more experience and more understanding of how stuff should be working to go and talk to and who have more power to actually correct/stop abuses.

Unions like any group of humans can get fucked up but workers being independent just makes them ripe to be abused because any one cog is easily replaced but replacing all the cogs at once is a lot harder.
 
Armadon

Armadon

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Speaking from a teachers perspective I've seen 1 teacher actually be defended properly. Some chick accussed a male teacher of looking at her tits. They wanted to fire him right away and ended up finding out she said it because he was failing her. All the other times it's the teacher being a fucktard and should be fired.
 
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kaid

kaid

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Utnayan said:
Decades of worthless workers being protected by Unions who are in the pockets of the same organization that they are supposed to protect employees from to begin with.
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aka decades of propaganda.
 
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Utnayan

Utnayan

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Delly said:
Same shit can be said about the government, businesses, and all kinds of things. We need to stop the pendulum from swinging too far one way.

Unions = bad is just a fucking lazy argument and one of the most common irrational thoughts.
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I base my opinion, as I am sure everyone else does here on whichever side they fall on, on my own experience. Here is mine:

1) Seeing button pushers in manufacturing getting paid $17.50 an hour destroying the profitability of a company as their skill set should barely pay them 9.
2) Seeing teachers who do not belong in their positions abusing tenure based off union rules to save their sorry ass and in conjunction, giving 50% effort in teaching students.
3) Seeing my own wife who has to be a part of a nurses union, of which the union is in the pocket of the hospital and keeps the interests of the hospital in check - not the nurses.

Add about 56 more of these types of examples across a wide array of industries.

There was a time for unions in 1923. Times have changed.

If game developers want better jobs and working conditions don't work in game development. It's that fucking simple. Companies who exist to make entertainment will eventually catch up when they have no product to sell as no one will work for them. But some game developers are too pussy to go get something else and know their own worth. And for the others, they fall under 1 and 2 listed above while crying to the world about how unfair life is.

Unions are a detriment to progress and job quality as it allows employees to stagnate in all their efforts. And the only people benefitting are the folks that are the union.
 
Gator

Gator

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Where I work we have a union and I have to say its a love/hate relationship with them. They are great when you need them but after having been promoted to supervisor I can see where they protect the crap employee or rather makes getting rid of them harder. The union forces the supervisor to do his job by documenting every incident and protects the employee from receiving to harsh of a punishment. As the supervisor documents more, the punishment increases. The problem with this is, the employee will just move to a different supervisor thats more lax or a position that less likely to get them in trouble. After awhile the discipline process will need to start over. example: certain write ups only stay in a personnel file for 2 years.

They are also great when it comes to negotiating a contract with the paying entity. They make sure no abuse happens or if it happens they will fight for you. Another example: Protect employees from abuse by ensuring the paying entity cannot adjust your shift to avoid paying overtime if its been earned. Also, putting limits on how much you can work a week. Little things like that are great.
 
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Delly

Delly

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Utnayan said:
Unions are a detriment to progress and job quality as it allows employees to stagnate in all their efforts. And the only people benefitting are the folks that are the union.
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Okay so basically everything you just said can be easily countered with this - just because you've experienced something doesn't mean that many other people have had positive experiences in which a union protected them in a situation that was unfair for the worker.

I think I've said it in two of my posts already. Its about balance. Strong union = bad for business. Strong business = bad for worker/union.

I mean I was on a practice council at the hospital I worked at and as soon as (at few months into it) we started discussing what the actual managers could do differently to benefit the employees our newsletter was labeled propaganda. The terms being used in this very conversation is the same dumb shit that businesses use against unions, thats the fuckin real propaganda.
 
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Delly

Delly

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I think the argument is really "generalizing is bad mkay". Not all (or even most) WoW players live in their parent's basement, Asmongold lives in his mom's attic. See? Totally busted argument.

If you start the argument with unions are bad, you've already lost. If I have to spell it out more than I'm sorry that won't be happening.
 
Folanlron

Folanlron

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Delly said:
I think the argument is really "generalizing is bad mkay". Not all (or even most) WoW players live in their parent's basement, Asmongold lives in his mom's attic. See? Totally busted argument.

If you start the argument with unions are bad, you've already lost. If I have to spell it out more than I'm sorry that won't be happening.
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I've had too deal with Unions(my family are all Nuclear plant workers, heavy unions) They do have there benefits, but for Software/Tech/Game development ? No, all it would do is create too much fat within companies, and then you will see prices spiral out of control.
 
Utnayan

Utnayan

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Delly said:
I think the argument is really "generalizing is bad mkay". Not all (or even most) WoW players live in their parent's basement, Asmongold lives in his mom's attic. See? Totally busted argument.

If you start the argument with unions are bad, you've already lost. If I have to spell it out more than I'm sorry that won't be happening.
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I totally agree. However, in my life experience in which I base my opinion on, I have literally not seen one positive union example. Obviously that can be completely different for another that has, I totally get it.
 
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kaid

kaid

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So it looks like a big patch is dropping today with the next stronghold the sunken. I have not seen patch notes yet so I am not sure what else made the update and apparently in their stream later today they will be releasing an updated 90 day road map. I kinda suspect a lot of the free play stuff is going to get delayed/revamped because a lot of those events currently are very hard to find and kinda bland even if you do find them.
 
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