Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies

wormie · Jun 15, 2021

Sanrith Descartes said:
Name what specific "relatively low" intrinsic value crypto has today.

Sweaty nerds qualifying the mathematics.

Tmac · Jun 15, 2021

Intrinsic value may as well he called subjective value the way you guys are throwing it around.

Arden · Jun 15, 2021

Tmac said:
Intrinsic value may as well he called subjective value the way you guys are throwing it around.

Well, I'm using

Sanrith Descartes definition of "intrinsic value" for the sake of this conversation, but for the record ALL value is subjective.

Tmac · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Well, I'm using Sanrith Descartes definition of "intrinsic value" for the sake of this conversation, but for the record ALL value is subjective.

Only if you keep using the words without defining them. Try using the characteristics of money when discussing money:

Durablility
Portability
Divisibility
Uniformity
Scarcity
Acceptability

We don't have to reinvent stuff that's been settled for ages.

wormie · Jun 15, 2021

Tmac said:
Only if you keep using the words without defining them. Try using the characteristics of money when discussing money:

Durablility
Portability
Divisibility
Uniformity
Scarcity
Acceptability

We don't have to reinvent stuff that's been settled for ages.

Without acceptability the rest doesnt matter. And acceptability is subjective.

Sanrith Descartes · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Even if you want to try and separate crypto coins from the tech (which you really can't), crypto would still have intrinsic value because the coins are backed by the tech, which, as you have acknowledged, has value.

Well... ok then.

Sanrith Descartes · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Well, I'm using Sanrith Descartes definition of "intrinsic value" for the sake of this conversation, but for the record ALL value is subjective.

A. I didnt make up the word and give it a definition. Intrinsic has definitions.
B. An apple has intrinsic value to human beings. If no one wants to purchase it, it can be eaten and sustain life. That is not a subjective value, it is an actual value. If the market for crypto went to zero tomorrow, what can you "do" with your coins if no one wants to buy them? This is actually pretty similar to options contracts that are out-of-the-money. They have zero intrinsic value (being ootm). The only value they possess is time value.
C. Your statement is sliding the bar. I agree value is for the most part subjective. I did not ask you to put a dollar amount on crypto coins' intrinsic value, I just ask you to describe it. The apple above has a subjective value because the person holding it may or may not be hungry at a point in time. Or they may not like apples. This makes its value subjective, but it is not zero.

Arden · Jun 15, 2021

Sanrith Descartes said:
A. I didnt make up the word and give it a definition. Intrinsic has definitions.
B. An apple has intrinsic value to human beings. If no one wants to purchase it, it can be eaten and sustain life. That is not a subjective value, it is an actual value. If the market for crypto went to zero tomorrow, what can you "do" with your coins if no one wants to buy them? This is actually pretty similar to options contracts that are out-of-the-money. They have zero intrinsic value (being ootm). The only value they possess is time value.
C. Your statement is sliding the bar. I agree value is for the most part subjective. I did not ask you to put a dollar amount on crypto coins' intrinsic value, I just ask you to describe it. The apple above has a subjective value because the person holding it may or may not be hungry at a point in time. Or they may not like apples. This makes its value subjective, but it is not zero.

If I'm allergic to apples and it would kill me to eat it, I'd say it has zero value to me.

Unless I wanted to commit suicide by anaphylactic shock- which seems like a shitty way to go.

Either way, it's still subjective. Value is always subjective because it relies on the presence of a "subject" to assess its value.

Sanrith Descartes · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
If I'm allergic to apples and it would kill me to eat it, I'd say it has zero value to me.

Not necessarily. It doesnt have zero value to human beings. Just you. It could be used as a substitute for other similar products in barter or trade with the 99.9999999999% of people not afflicted with your allergy.

Arden · Jun 15, 2021

Sanrith Descartes said:
Not necessarily. It doesnt have zero value to human beings. Just you. It could be used as a substitute for other similar products in barter or trade with the 99.9999999999% of people not afflicted with your allergy.

Perhaps I'm the only person on earth. Or perhaps I think I'm the only person on earth because I'm on an island and there are no other people present. There are no options to barter and I can't eat or use the apple in any other useful way. The apple has no value to me. If you want to argue it might have value to someone else then you're just proving my point that its value is subjective.

wormie · Jun 15, 2021

Uhh if an apple kills you it still has value because you can trade it to others. Only way it doesnt have value is if it kills a a lot of people.

James · Jun 15, 2021

MachRed said:
The BTC vs ETH, scarcity vs use case, gold vs paper. Both would seem to benefit each other. If BTC/gold was hoarded without an open market to actually buy shit you want, what's the point. If you only had ETH/cash, where's the incentive to hold long term digital assets? Seems to me it would look like a fiat world without a cornerstone of perceived wealth or scarcity.

This is a false dichotomy, BTC vs ETH is not gold vs paper in the slightest. ETH is just as much a store of value as BTC is.

Sanrith Descartes · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Perhaps I'm the only person on earth. Or perhaps I think I'm the only person on earth because I'm on an island and there are no other people present. There are no options to barter and I can't eat or use the apple in any other useful way. The apple has no value to me. If you want to argue it might have value to someone else then you're just proving my point that its value is subjective.

So when you need to create a scenario that you "are the only person on earth" to try to prove a basic point, its probably easier to just let it go.

ps.. in your scenario your crypto still has no intrinsic value because there is no one on the planet to buy it from you. But I guess since you are allergic to apples you can just eat your coins, amirite?

Arden · Jun 15, 2021

Sanrith Descartes said:
So when you need to create a scenario that you "are the only person on earth" to try to prove a basic point, its probably easier to just let it go.

ps.. in your scenario your crypto still has no intrinsic value because there is no one on the planet to buy it from you. But I guess since you are allergic to apples you can just eat your coins, amirite?

Nah, you're missing the point. If you look up the difference between "subjective" and "objective" you'll see why something like "value" is subjective 100% of the time, regardless of what scenario you want to use.

Jive Turkey · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Perhaps I'm the only person on earth. Or perhaps I think I'm the only person on earth because I'm on an island and there are no other people present. There are no options to barter and I can't eat or use the apple in any other useful way. The apple has no value to me. If you want to argue it might have value to someone else then you're just proving my point that its value is subjective.

Then we can say the intrinsic value of something is the average value of the thing to everyone in the system

Izo · Jun 15, 2021

Tmac said:
Intrinsic value may as well he called subjective value the way you guys are throwing it around.

What a valuable contribution. Keep it up, Good Sir Edgelord.

Sanrith Descartes · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Nah, you're missing the point. If you look up the difference between "subjective" and "objective" you'll see why something like "value" is subjective 100% of the time, regardless of what scenario you want to use.

Ok.

Izo · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
Perhaps I'm the only person on earth. Or perhaps I think I'm the only person on earth because I'm on an island and there are no other people present. There are no options to barter and I can't eat or use the apple in any other useful way. The apple has no value to me. If you want to argue it might have value to someone else then you're just proving my point that its value is subjective.

You could throw it at the covid vacc doc. Great value.

Caliane · Jun 15, 2021

Arden said:
If I'm allergic to apples and it would kill me to eat it, I'd say it has zero value to me.

Unless I wanted to commit suicide by anaphylactic shock- which seems like a shitty way to go.

Either way, it's still subjective. Value is always subjective because it relies on the presence of a "subject" to assess its value.

apple would still be fertilizer/compost for something you do want to eat, or feed for animal you want to eat, or let ferment for beer, or let ferment to feed alcohol to squirrels which is fucking hilarious. or, planted for shade. the apple>seeds>tree would provide habitat for animals, microbes. and the life cycle of pulling nutrients out of the ground, and dropping leaves/apples in forest litter would provide topsoil and ground cover, terraforming the environment, adding in further life to spread.

Sanrith Descartes · Jun 15, 2021

Caliane said:
apple would still be fertilizer/compost for something you do want to eat, or feed for animal you want to eat, or let ferment for beer, or let ferment to feed alcohol to squirrels which is fucking hilarious. or, planted for shade. the apple>seeds>tree would provide habitat for animals, microbes. and the life cycle of pulling nutrients out of the ground, and dropping leaves/apples in forest litter would provide topsoil and ground cover, terraforming the environment, adding in further life to spread.

Enough with you God damned facts!!

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