Sanrith Descartes
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Bitcoins/Litecoins/Virtual Currencies
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Guest, it's time once again for the massively important and exciting FoH Asshat Tournament!
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Arden
Blackwing Lair Raider
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Man, you guys are really not getting the difference between subjective and objective 
It's ok, I'm too fucking hung over to keep arguing semantics.
Ok last try:
Pretend there are 3 apples on a table.
The VALUE of those apples is SUBJECTIVE because the determination of how much value they may have (or if they have value at all) is completely dependent on an observer (i.e. the "subject").
Alternatively, the QUANTITY of apples on the table is OBJECTIVE because there will always be three apples on the table no matter who the observer is, or even if there are no observers.
Ok, I'm done with the value of apples. Carry on.
Next week we will talk about whether color is objective or subjective, which (unlike value) is actually a philosophical grey area.
It's ok, I'm too fucking hung over to keep arguing semantics.Ok last try:
Pretend there are 3 apples on a table.
The VALUE of those apples is SUBJECTIVE because the determination of how much value they may have (or if they have value at all) is completely dependent on an observer (i.e. the "subject").
Alternatively, the QUANTITY of apples on the table is OBJECTIVE because there will always be three apples on the table no matter who the observer is, or even if there are no observers.
Ok, I'm done with the value of apples. Carry on.
Next week we will talk about whether color is objective or subjective, which (unlike value) is actually a philosophical grey area.
Asshat wormie
2023 Asshat Award Winner
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Man, you guys are really not getting the difference between subjective and objective
Ok last try:
Pretend there are 3 apples on a table.
The VALUE of those apples is SUBJECTIVE because the determination of how much value they may have (or if they have value at all) is completely dependent on an observer (i.e. the "subject").
Alternatively, the QUANTITY of apples on the table is OBJECTIVE because there will always be three apples on the table no matter who the observer is, or even if there are no observers.
Ok, I'm done with the value of apples. Carry on.
Next week we will talk about whether color is objective or subjective, which (unlike value) is actually a philosophical grey area.
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Tmac
Adventurer
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Tmac
Adventurer
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Consider that the intrinsic value of Bitcoin is the work (POW) that went into mining it (verifying it on the ledger). That energy expended creates intrinsic value.
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Tmac
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The Apple, which you’re allergic to, has value to you if you can trade it for an Orange, which you’re not allergic to. That Apple just fed you, even though it has the potential to kill you.
So, even though Sanrith doesn’t think BTC has intrinsic value, if he had a Bitcoin he could trade it for something he does think has value like a hyper inflated paperback.
Sanrith Descartes
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Flobee
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Transmutation of electricity from the physical world into value in the digital world. Combined with the HODLers of last resort creates the price floor on Bitcoin.
Sanrith Descartes
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We shall just disagree on this. I do not feel it has any intrinsic value but, like an option, it does have time value because it has the potential to return a higher premium than you paid for it over time (be that 1 year or 1 minute depending on how volatile it is feeling).
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Jive Turkey
Karen
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The energy hasn't actually been stored as anything, so this argument isn't valid. I could spend a year building a house in Minecraft and use the same amount of energy as it takes to mine a bitcoin. That doesn't mean my Minecraft house is worth anything. The mining energy is more of a scarcity limiter than an actual proof of value.
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Tmac
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Sanrith Descartes
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Naw, Im just too lazy to log into Gemini at work since the price is not where I would be watching it. I just grabbed Kitco off a google search for BTC price.
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Tmac
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It has intrinsic value you to, otherwise you wouldn’t have put that much time into it. Intrinsic value is a MEASUREMENT of that value.
Intrinsic value is a ruler not a trait.
The intrinsic value of that Minecraft house is 100 hours. Or $2,000 dollars at $20 an hour. Or whatever your friend pays you for it.
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Jive Turkey
Karen
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My point was more that the energy consumption does not imbue something with value in and of itself. Unless it's actually storing energy in a battery that can be measured and used for something else. So the "it took 5 bajillion gigawatts to mine this bitcoin so it's worth something" doesn't hold
Tmac
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No? Why do we pay hourly wages regardless of being able to measure the outcome?
We pay people for expending their energy. When we’re smart/lucky we pay for expending their energy in the form is skills. Some, like federal government workers, we pay for breathing.
When I pay for lumber I’m paying for the land it grew on, the logging machine/gas/parts/maintenance that cut it, the gas/maintenance on the truck that hauled it, the mill that sawed it. There’s a lot of energy (value) stored up in that 2 x 4.
If you wanna get real philosophical when I eat an apple I’m metabolizing the days it grew, the sap it drank, the energy it metabolized and stored.
Jive Turkey
Karen
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Okay, my laptop has transmutated a shitton of energy since I bought it, so the value has actually appreciated...
We pay people for expending their energy because there's a tangible product that is worth something at the end of the line. You can't say that for bitcoin. There's just bitcoin and a bunch of lost heat energy
Tmac
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The depreciation of your laptop is a technology problem. The same w paperbacks that eventually get shredded.
You pay people to expend their energy in HOPES that there’s a tangible product on the other side. That’s why we choose reputable vendors of services, because there’s always a chance you end up paying for the energy they expended with nothing to show for it. Or you don’t pay them and they write off the loss for not getting paid for that shitty job they did w their energy.
The analogy is imperfect bc Bitcoin isn’t a service being provided. It’s a currency that, by design, better expresses the characteristics of currency than silver or gold.
BTC is simply a response of technology solving a problem, much like cloud computing will one day solve your depreciating laptop problem.
You pay people to expend their energy in HOPES that there’s a tangible product on the other side. That’s why we choose reputable vendors of services, because there’s always a chance you end up paying for the energy they expended with nothing to show for it. Or you don’t pay them and they write off the loss for not getting paid for that shitty job they did w their energy.
The analogy is imperfect bc Bitcoin isn’t a service being provided. It’s a currency that, by design, better expresses the characteristics of currency than silver or gold.
BTC is simply a response of technology solving a problem, much like cloud computing will one day solve your depreciating laptop problem.
Jive Turkey
Karen
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This doesn't discredit the concept though. Much like the paying government workers for breathing example. You're just cherrypicking imperfections in a system. No system is perfect, but it doesn't change the fact that we pay people to expend their energy to create a tangible product at the end. The energy expenditure is a means to an end.
(I feel like we've gone way into the weeds. Back on track: How's Cumrocket performing today?)
